Survivor-Centered AI, Data Centers, and the Future of Remote Work with Theodora Skeadas

Theodora Skeadas is back for round two, and we packed in a lot! In Part 1, we got into red teaming, AI governance, and social scoring. This time we went wider, starting with what’s happening to remote work and who gets left behind as companies pull people back into offices, tighten visa rules for trust and safety roles, and automate outsourced content moderation jobs.

We talk about the “portfolio life” as a way to future-proof your career instead of betting everything on one role, what happened to Twitter’s workforce demographics after the layoffs, and Theo’s survivor-centered approach to fighting AI-generated intimate image abuse. We also make the case for treating cloud infrastructure as a public utility, and dig into the climate and water costs of data centers. Whew!

Chapters

00:00 – Felicia and Rachel intro: Spider-Man’s Vulture and class solidarity

11:02 – Remote work

18:45 – The case for a “portfolio life”

24:33 – Centering survivors in the fight against AI-generated intimate image abuse

32:13 – The case for treating cloud infrastructure as a public utility

35:54 – Data centers, water, and the climate cost of cloud infrastructure

46:41 – Panpsychism, consciousness, and AI

00:07 Hi and welcome to the She Geeks Out podcast where we geek out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work making the world a better and brighter place. I'm Rachel and I'm Felicia. We're back with Theodoric Sciatus, trusted safety and responsible AI leader for part two of our conversation.

00:25 In part one we covered red teaming, AI governance, and social scoring. This time we're getting into remote work and who gets left behind as companies pull back on it. The portfolio approach to building a career out of more than one role. What happened to Twitter's workforce demographics after the layoffs.

00:41 Theo's survivor-centered approach to fighting AI-generated intimate image abuse. The case for treating cloud infrastructure as a public utility. And the climate cost of data centers. Whew, literally a lot, but it's a great conversation. Let's get into it.

00:57 But before we get into it, we got something else to get into. We do, we really do, and that is Spider-Man. Didn't know if that was what you were thinking we'd say, but here we are. Spider-Man it is. You know, I have a reason for it. Yes, and it it ties it ties into this work that we do and this moment that we are in.

01:19 So last night, I was watching Spider-Man Homecoming. Which I had to look up the date that that came out. That was like 2017, 2017, 2018. And it was it stars Michael Keaton as the bad guy this time.

01:37 The vulture. And what was that? The vulture. Yeah, the vulture. And it opens the opening scene is he's basically like a union worker who's got a team and their job is to basically dispose of trash. And so this is like the alien trash in the aftermath of all the things that the Avengers did to like.

01:55 Blow stuff up to make the world safe, and then so in comes Tyne Daly, aka Cagney or Lacey. I cannot remember which one it was. She's lovely, but she was not lovely in this. She was basically working for Iron Man, who has a lovely company, Stark Industries, who's like, actually, we're going to take over the contract to get rid of this stuff.

02:16 And so, of course, the union guy, Vulture, before he turned Vulture, was like. Not cool, man. This is how we need our monies, and so then he ends up becoming the bad guy. Now I will say, to Marvel's credit, they made him a little nuanced.

02:32 But overall, the story is the working guy takes out revenge and is ultimately punished and is a bad guy, period. And it's funny, I was texting with my friends about this, and I was just like, this is really interesting.

02:48 Working class guy equals bad. I don't think you could do that today. And then my friend responded, but he gets rich selling weapons to bad dudes. And I was like, yeah, very nihilist. And then my very smart husband was like, wait, is that Iron Man? And I was like, touche, sir, touche.

03:04 Touche. For someone who does not really partake in the whole Marvel universe, I was pretty impressed with that line and it made me think. And it's true, it's true. I mean, we were just talking about this before we hit record, but I was saying to you. And I'll repeat right now that I personally find the Marvel universe a little overwhelming at this point because there's just so much.

03:23 And if you haven't kept up with it, if you like miss a film, I just feel like there's too much that you have to catch up on. But a few years ago, maybe last year, what is time? I don't even know. But I tried to start over from the beginning. So to your point, I actually have seen the first Iron Man not too long ago, and it is a very interesting movie because he's literally like a war criminal.

03:46 And he's selling machinery and ammunition and guns and all this stuff to war criminals and that's how part of how he gets rich and that's his like origin story with how he gets like the thing in his chest and all that. That's right. I feel like we need spoiler alerts so if anyone out there has not seen any Marvel movies and they really want to they should not be listening to this.

04:07 If anyone is like oh now is the time I'm gonna start watching Marvel movies I would like you to send us an email because I think it would probably be more of a letter, a handwritten letter, because you're so out of it. But yeah, then it's a letter. It's like me being plant-based in 2026. It's like, boy, I really came late.

04:24 Everyone else is like back on the meat train, and I'm like, wait, I don't want no meat now. But yeah, I mean, to back to the vulture though, like super nuanced, and it really kind of makes me think because again, you said it was what 2017 that the movie came out.

04:40 Almost 10 years ago. You know, we didn't have Luigi Mangione at that point. I just feel like it is a different world, and I would be really curious what the reception would be if that movie came out today. And to your point, I think well taken is that I don't think this movie would be made in this way if it were to come out today.

04:58 Yeah, and I wonder, like, would Robert Downey Jr.'s character be the same now? You know, it is it's really interesting, and I was thinking about how even like As they were showing him with you know Happy and they were gonna go and like they they brought in Spider-Man to like do this big press conference because he was gonna become an Avenger and boy I mean it reminded me a lot of the boys.

05:21 I was like wow they're they I mean obviously the boys is very much like you know it's the it's taking a lot of liberty the dark side yeah it's just really it's it's an interesting time as we continue to have deep conversations about massive amounts of wealth and how much harm and good it can do.

05:43 So, I mean, spoiler alert, I guess is this as well is I mean, at least I guess Iron Man does die. So, how dare you spoil this movie from like five years ago. Well, I'm just I pulled up the Wikipedia for homecoming because I want to make sure I didn't forget anything because again there's so many like easter eggs and everything but according to the Wikipedia In a mid-credit end scene, someone that's approaching the vulture character at the end in prison, and he's like, "I hear you know Spider-Man's real identity," and he denies it.

06:18 Yes. So again, like, I mean, I want to talk about some things like class solidarity and yes, you know, like who is right and who is wrong in a world where it's very nuanced and multi-layered and he could have sold out Spider-Man at that point and obviously and I will say I think this is one of my biggest complaints and issues with the Marvel universe, which is not the movie's fault themselves, but it's more the fans and how they treat this universe.

06:46 And I'm going to bring this up because I almost caught myself slipping into this a little bit just now as well. But what I personally have a really big pet peeve with is fans online talking about these characters like they are real people and discussing their motives.

07:01 As if they weren't written by a team of writers, I cannot handle it. This is my rant for the day. It really annoys me, and that's why I think I actually haven't like kept up because I can't handle the fan base being like, "But when Captain America did this and oh my God, he could have totally not done that." And it's like, you know, this is fake.

07:18 Like it's a writer, it's a team of writers. They wrote this line. Anyway, no, I mean, I get it. It is true how people do get so invested in this stuff, and I do wonder if like Even that's changing a little bit. I it's this is the first year I've lived in San Diego now for six years and this is the first year where I just feel so disconnected from the Comic Con stuff that happened that sort of like happened here but it wasn't I just it sort of happened all of a sudden and I like I knew it was happening and then I mean I don't live downtown so obviously I'm not in it but you know it is you're not too far away no and it does it does permeate the energy typically and it just Didn't feel like it did it this year.

08:00 Yeah, so I mean, I don't know. I think with all the the attempts for bread and circus, you know, it's just I wonder if if people are just, you know, are seeing it maybe a little bit more clearly than in the past. I don't know. It's my wishful thinking.

08:15 Yeah, I mean, have you ever been to a a Comic Con or a a con of any sort? Great question. I've never been to any cons. Including Comic-Con, I did attempt a few like early on when I first moved here to get in. It's really hard.

08:31 It's a lottery and like I didn't get in. But if you are downtown and especially in the Embarcadero area, they have a lot of activations that are sort of available in the area and I think they try to make it so that you can do more things even if you don't have a ticket.

08:48 So I kind of like walked through it. Very equitable. Very equitable. I think it's still about money, but yes, sure. Or maybe not equitable. Maybe trying to be more inclusive is better. Yeah, perhaps. I think it's still about making sure that people can stay invested and spend as much money on their products as humanly possible.

09:07 Sure, two things can be true at the same time. Things can be true at the same time. Absolutely. And but it was cool to see like all the people in the costumes and. You know of all different, you know, shapes and sizes and varieties and everything. So it was just really, it was really neat to see that.

09:24 And it is like really, it's an impressive thing. I guess in the way that fireworks are impressive, you know, it's just like wow, it's a lot. And I feel like it's it's like a machinery, right? Because it's just it's a whole world of its own. I've never been to a con either, but part of why I asked you is because I think it was last weekend.

09:41 I want to say there's some kind of fan con. In Boston, and I don't know anything more than that. But what I do know beyond that is that because of this event, whatever it was in Boston, the the Hobbits were in town. Amazing.

09:57 You know, the actors who played Mary, Pippin, Frodo, and Sam. So obviously they have names too, and I know them. But for sake of clarity and and brevity, so they were just like in Boston all weekend, like hanging out, like. Doing stuff and going to restaurants and I just again had a lot of FOMO because I need to know did that did they also drink the entire city dry?

10:21 I don't think so but you know it would have been a lot to live up to. That's true. There is a there is a new tartan that is being made that represents the the renewed friendship between Boston and Scotland. Oh my gosh. Unveiled recently. So is it just made of a beer mug?

10:40 I love that. By the way, I need to just pause and then I know we should get to the interview, but I just need to say, just to key on you calling it FanCon, because I just feel like it should be called ConCon. ConCon. Do the can-can at the ConCon. Exactly, exactly. Well, I thank the lovely listeners who decided to stay on board for this little brief interlude before we get to it.

11:01 We got a lot to talk about, but we also have a lot to talk about at all times. So, you know, it doesn't all have to be heavy. Yes, well without further ado, let's get into our interview for today. So welcome back to the pod, Theo. Yay. We are so excited to welcome back Theo.

11:18 It's so great to have you on again. Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here with you guys. Yay. Yeah, we will we will certainly have in the the show notes the previous episode, the part one to this part two. But there was so much that we had to cover that we didn't get to. So yeah, we're we're glad we can continue the conversation.

11:37 Me too, Felicia. Where do you want to start? Do you want to just dive on in? I mean, yeah, yeah, go for it. That's great. Ooh, me? Okay. Yeah, go for it. Yay. All right. All right. So we asked like I don't honestly don't even remember like the last question that we asked, but I think one of the questions that we wanted to sort of dive into.

11:56 So we'll just start here is want to talk a little bit about the remote work. We didn't get to that piece, right? So and we talked a bit about job searching in response in responsible tech and all the amazing work that you've done. And as we think about how remote work is shifting, do you feel like this field is becoming more or less accessible geographically?

12:19 What does he think that means in terms of diversity for who ends up shaping policy? Oh, I have many thoughts on this question. So I think the answer is yes and no, or both at the same time. And also, things have changed a lot in the last few years and even the last few months and weeks. So I think in general, remote work enables broader access, right?

12:39 You can access work from all over the world, and you know, in my own relationship, like my partner, who is originally from Morocco, is a software engineer, was able to benefit from remote work and enabled us to work across continents, you know, and and sort of like enable a long distance relationship, and then enabled him.

13:02 Transition more easily to work here, and both of us have been like huge fans of remote work for a decade now, a long time, and it I think it opens a lot of doors. More recently, there have been shifts away from remote work.

13:21 So in the last few years, in particular since the start of 2023, companies have been remo- moving back. Post-COVID, to a work from office policy, whether it's one, two, three, four, or even five days a week, every few we see you know the announcement that new companies are requiring that their staff work from from an office, which obviously limits participation.

13:46 On top of that, the State Department in December issued it an executive order or rather a policy announcement. That they would no longer be accepting work visa applications or renewal applications for H-1B work workers in trust and safety roles.

14:06 So it was an explicit announcement that the State Department was prohibiting foreign workers from coming to the U.S. to do trust and safety work. Now that's not necessarily remote work because those are people coming from abroad to the U.S. to do remote work. But it's a Barrier to people who are foreign-born immigrants, who are doing trust and safety work in the U.S.

14:28 or would hope to, right? Have been offered a job and are going through the immigration process. And then more recently, we've seen announcements like Meta's that they're transitioning away from BPO or business process outsourcing contracts. Again, not exactly remote work because a lot of these operated.

14:47 In country, in places like Kenya, and India and the Philippines, and folks, many of them had to go into their office. They weren't allowed to work remotely, but it did create a global workforce that enabled diverse perspectives and voices and access.

15:04 And so, in a lot of ways, it further restricts access to this kind of work. And it's the I think the announcement is such that this work is being automated. So, I think in general, remote work is a tremendously opportunistic way to engage people across geographic differences.

15:25 However, the the trends have shifted in a different direction more recently. Yeah, it's so interesting. I was just reading this morning I think it was a Forbes article about this British entrepreneur named Emma Greed. Have either of you?

15:41 Read about her. No. So I'll get the like highlights and I can include the link in the show notes too. But basically, she was recently on Kiki Palmer's podcast, and she was talking and she basically said something like, "I think work from home culture is a career killer for women." And so she talked about how it's like, you know, if you want to get ahead as a woman, you need to be in the office to like get the corner office and like you know schmooze and all that kind of stuff.

16:04 And there was definitely, you know, I think mixed reactions online. I think. you know to your point Theo I think if she'd said this even six years ago it would have been taken very differently but you know as you were talking you know beyond the AI industry and and that sort of dynamic of remote work and what that means one of the things I was thinking about is just like how we're seeing all this data and research that shows that women are actually leaving the workforce and I think it's you know the the number that sticks in my head is 600,000 black women left the labor or pushed were pushed out of the labor force in just last year alone and so you know I think that it's interesting because with the globalization and like that ideally global nature of this kind of trust and safety work and and AI I think you know there's a lot of opportunities for this kind of remote hybrid work but we're also like you said seeing such a shift away from it, so it feels really disappointing to see these trends kind of go in this direction at this point in time, given everything else.

17:09 Yeah, I also don't agree with her sentiment at all. I'm not saying. I think that's not accurate. Like in, especially in in highly distributed companies, like I, you know, I have worked for a number of tech companies that are just distributed teams, and everybody is working from home.

17:29 And so I think perhaps in some environments that is true. I think in the tech environment and I will say there are serious benefits to being housed in San Francisco. Like if you work in the tech space to be based in SF or maybe New York City, maybe Boston DC, some cities give advantages, but but otherwise it these teams are pretty distributed.

17:55 You're on a call either way. Cause you're even if you're in San Francisco, you're working with folks who are in Seattle and Houston, you know, and Phoenix, right? So you're still on calls either way. There isn't like a secular hub, although again, the SF is the center of gravity.

18:12 And to your point, remote work is particularly helpful to mothers, to people who have complex schedules, right? Enabling them to work a little flexibly, offers. them the opportunity to stay in the workforce, and so I just think it's a little bit of a false dichotomy because a lot of women have been disproportionately impacted by layoffs and these shifts that are happening within companies, and flexibility grants opportunity.

18:45 Yeah, and can we if it's okay, I'd love to stay on this a little bit longer because I think it's just such an interesting space to occupy, especially because you are. You're you you personally occupy this very interesting space where you're like you know you you have this you're working at at DoorDash and so you're kind of working in the tech space and you're also doing all this responsible AI work yeah and you know Felicia and I certainly talk a lot about like what is work going to even look like in two years or three years like how do you even think about it and I will say I've posed this question to many people and no one can give me even a prediction because it feels like it's impossible to ask so Can I just ask you the impossible question?

19:25 Cause why not? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So I I really subscribe to the concept that at least can Christina Wallace has pushed called the portfolio life. So she's a Harvard, I think, business school professor. And the idea is like future-proofing your career by by building a life that is multifaceted.

19:49 And I think that this includes both work and personal elements. And I will also add, so the Harvard Kennedy School had a virtual session recently for graduates, that was focused on reframing, resetting, and reconnecting, expanding your career through fractional leadership.

20:12 And the idea was, it's a little bit different, but very related to the previous one, which is like. Having multiple leadership roles that are part time, and so I think this idea that we had for a long time of like you have one job, one role, nine to five, that's all you do, has really evolved.

20:33 And I very much subscribe to this. I love having my day job. It offers me real insight and opportunity for impact and great benefits and. I like being engaged in other ways, and and I've adopted this approach since I worked full-time from the very beginning.

20:50 I think I had three full-time roles in my in when I moved abroad after college at the same time, just because they they gave me different things. And I remember when I started working at Booz Allen after grad school, I also was running political campaigns and helping run nonprofits.

21:08 So like I I I just think this is a great way to be. No, it's I think it's really great and you know one of the things that Rachel and I have been sort of I don't know what the right word is like exploring or you know diving into especially in the last few years has been you know sort of this I guess the portfolioization of it all is a good way to put it like mixing and matching different things that give you what you want and need because You know, I don't think one job can do it all at this point in time, especially given all the dynamics of the trends and the shifts in societal things that we've been talking about already.

21:45 You know, maybe that would have been true 10, 15, 20 years ago, but not, I don't think, in today's world. So, having the ability to mix and match is really great in a lot of ways. And and going back to that previous point that we were talking about too, like you know, one of the things I do think about is, you know.

22:03 Are we seeing that is going to be a pathway for, you know, different groups like women or maybe even other marginalized folks who are out there figuring out what their careers look like? Or are we going to see in the future like a total shift where really is a lot of these decisions and power and you know sort of way forward being really concentrated in very small groups of you know dominant identity kind of folks.

22:28 I don't think we know the answer to that quite just yet. Maybe you know answers to those questions, and if so, let me know. But well, what I will say is like what we saw from the Twitter layoff specifically was that the company became very male and white. Yeah.

22:44 And so like what we've seen is that tumult and transition just does disproportionately impact employees of color, women, and other people with other marginalized identities. I mean my team Was 11 people of whom eight were women, only three were men, and many of whom were people of color.

23:04 After the layoffs, there were two people left, and they were the two white men on the team. So it it really did. It changed the demographics tremendously. And Twitter was a a uniquely diverse workforce within the tech ecosystem pre-acquisition.

23:21 So the the transition was very stark. And and that's part of why there were several lawsuits that were quite successful, as I understand it, specifically about discrimination on the basis of gender and race. Well, I mean, honestly, Theo, like since you know they they've just reduced it to white men, it seems like Twitter's doing really well now, right?

23:41 Yeah, I mean they they remain a a dominant player in some ways, but so much of their activity is AI generated. Bot generated, and and their user base has also like become a lot more white and male, right?

23:56 It has it has homogenized. Though I would say women have left significantly, people of color have left significantly, and the conversation is a lot more vitriolic towards those people as well. Yeah, really rising to the point. It depends on their definition of success.

24:12 Yeah, you know. I'll leave it at that, Felicia. Please. Yeah. Well, I guess I don't know if this is a natural bridge to our next question or not. Maybe it is. Maybe not. You tell me. I want to talk a little bit about stuff that I think Twitter was doing really well in some ways, but I don't think so anymore.

24:33 But you've done quite a bit of work on AI-generated intimate image abuse and how it you know your work really is about centering survivors rather than just the systems. And I think that's a pretty distinct framing from a lot of AI safety work. So, I guess I'm curious how does bringing that survivor-centered perspective change what responsible development looks like in practice?

24:55 And do you think that that lens might have broader implications or applications for how we're evaluating AI in a workplace context? Yes, I have so many thoughts on this question too. I want to go. Yeah, so I have done a lot of work in this space, both.

25:12 With governments and with civil society in the last few years, so Humane Intelligence did research and wrote a report for the UK government, their Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office, which is like their Foreign Affairs Office and and USAID equivalent, and then their Department for Science, Innovation and Technology on evaluating survivor-centric tools for intimate image abuse in the age of generative AI.

25:36 And intimate image abuse is a subset of this larger category of harm. We call tech facilitated gender-based violence. The acronym has evolved a little bit over the last few years from OVAWP or online violence against women in politics and public life and others to TFGBV.

25:54 That's typically it's a bit of a mouthful, but that's typically how people describe it. And it's really gender-based violence that results in harm, whether it's physical, sexual, psychological, social, political, or economic. And it can include online harassment, image-based abuse.

26:10 Docking, monitoring, and gender disinformation. So it has a number of subsets. And what we did specifically for this report was look at the scope of the issue, and the scope is significant. And because AI lowers the barriers, both to the tools that enable the generation of artificial content that is of a very sensitive nature and the dissemination of it.

26:35 It has proliferated tremendously in this era of generative AI. We looked at how companies, both generative AI companies and social media platforms, have a role to play, as well as third-party tools or non-profits and the regulatory landscape, and basically looked at a number of indicators and and came to the conclusion that there are a lot of gaps.

27:00 And that a survivor-centric approach helps to fill those gaps. So, for example, survivors can inform on where existing processes fail. So, fully automated systems, for example, that don't have any human connection during moments of crisis and vulnerability can be very uncomfortable for survivors.

27:21 They also talked about, for example, the presumption of consistent internet access, digital literacy. That could marginalize rural users, so women in rural areas that are impacted by this issue, as well as other problems like, for example, technical collection challenges, so a shared device that creates privacy concerns or safety risks if a perpetrator is using the same device as the victim survivor, or for example, the the incredible amount of time it can take survivors to.

27:55 Hear back from a platform after submitting a report. And so having a survivor-centric approach, one that centers the voices and experiences of people who've who've gone through this issue, brings us closest to identifying where gaps can be filled within existing processes and policies.

28:16 So quick follow-up question for you Theo, because you know this is definitely your area of expertise. Not I I won't speak for you Rachel, but not mine at all. I was just kind of struck by a thought as you were sharing, I guess maybe two thoughts rather. first thought was really isn't it wild that we that it's not all survivor-centered approaches I I'm just gonna let that one sit there for a second but my my other thought which I guess is a question really more is so in like a typical I don't want to say average, but like let's say you know you have a case like a case study or something, right?

28:55 And someone is trying to reach out to a platform. Is it the case that most of the time they're going to be interacting with an AI bot to try to report that this is happening? Is that what I'm understanding from you? Yeah. So, first of all, it's hard to connect with survivors because the way the policy process works, right?

29:15 People in Offices or maybe at home, right, if they're working remotely, are doing research and identifying policy solutions, but they're not typically like employees at companies are not typically in contact directly with survivors. Usually those survivors are represented by third-party civil society organizations, NGOs like Access Now or Perth.org, Frontline Defenders, Article 19 groups that are.

29:43 Doing the really hard work of being in touch with survivors, and in this case, like survivors are a very vulnerable vulnerable group as well. And so, I think there are certain activist cohorts or people who experience unique marginalization on social media platforms or online that are a little easier to get in touch with.

30:01 Survivors have experienced trauma, and so to also to ask them to relive that trauma, for the purpose of generating a policy or improving a process is is a big ask. So there's a number of reasons why survivors are typically not in direct conversation with platforms.

30:17 Some are, but generally they're not. And then when the reporting flows, typically, most companies don't have a reporting flow specifically for gender-based violence. So they go through a generic reporting flow, and it's typically automated.

30:33 So now, while the the the report itself may be submitted via in you know an app-based or Browser-based method, a best practice is for the cases to ultimately be reviewed by people.

30:50 But depending on the scale of abuse, the size of the platform, the size of the trust and safety team, that may not be happening. And as we mentioned, right, like with Meta outsource, it have transitioning from outsource BPO organizations to AI systems, like there's a real push towards automation.

31:08 that undermines a human-centric response to sensitive cases like yeah there's I don't have really much to add other than thank you for your service like this is you know I mean it's just really it's it's like depressing that the robots are you know but boy what a what a Clear need, you know, there's a lot of conversation around, you know, humans are still going to be needed.

31:38 Boy, this really seems like a case. Specifically here, yeah, yeah. And I mean, some companies like some companies do a great job of human-centric reviews for the the most severe safety escalations, right? But they just not all of them. Yeah. And and the broader trend is towards automation, right?

31:54 Right. Yeah, I was listening to some podcasts too about, you know, it's not that all the jobs are going to go away for customer support. It's just that the people who are really good. Well, the they will remain as like the top tier level support. So I mean, take that. Well, they'll be AI managers. Yeah, there are now job descriptions for AI tools.

32:12 I just came across one a few days ago. Yeah, I have friends who are literally like AI managers in a large tech company right now. It's kind of wild. Yeah. Well, so another easy question for you. Uh-hhuh. These are all easy questions. Oh yeah. so the next one is wanted to talk about sort of the cloud you know all technology as sort of as public utility so you have argued we we stalked you so we read all of your pieces we didn't read all right i'm so glad to hear it yeah yeah you're very prolific it's wonderful that the cloud should be treated as a public utility which we just Spoiler alert, we agree with that, but it has big implications for how organizations think about their AI infrastructure and its dependencies.

33:00 So can you talk about that? Make the case for it? Why it matters to sort of the average employer and the worker? Yeah, yeah. So the idea here is that public utilities increasingly occupy pretty essential digital infrastructure for.

33:19 Americans. And they alongside digital services generally are underregulated. So cloud providers can be required to furnish adequate, efficient, just, and reasonable service, enforcing non-discrimination and other prohibited practices, regulating the rates.

33:44 That are offered or are are mandated for service access, and affordable offerings in particular for people who may have financial hardship, requiring transparency, interconnection, open access, and then also requiring portability or service switching so that there's not such a barrier between switching from one utility to another, and annual reporting amongst other things.

34:12 These are elements to service provision that can be regulated if we think of cloud services as we do public utilities. So, public utilities typically refers to things like electricity and water, where we know that these are required infrastructure, and as a result, they're regulated, right?

34:35 Everyone has access to water. Right, and and electricity, and increasingly there's a conversation about whether cloud services should be considered a public utility. And so the argument that me and my co-authors make, and and we've been in touch with legislators on this issue around the country, is that there should be better regulation.

35:03 Of public utilities, and in particular, this is a problem because there's unprecedented concentration of power in this space. So, right now, three companies, Amazon Web Services, Microsoft Azure, and Google Cloud, control 76% of the cloud market, which is a pretty significant consolidation over essential digital infrastructure that rivals historical monopolies in.

35:33 Telecommunications, electricity, and transportation. So, it it's a concentration that threatens economic stability, democratic governance, access, and is something that this kind of framing can help address. And just to be clear, so this is kind of just for listeners especially.

35:54 Like this is basically going one step beyond what I think a lot of people might be thinking about with regard to this this argument. around you know public utility in the future this would be like you know internet as a public utility and then cloud kind of stacked on top of that right as far as that goes yeah it's it's interesting because one of the things that we didn't get into in our last conversation with you but I think this is a nice sort of on-ramp into is around not just access to things like the cloud and you know having this be a service that everyone can can kind of get into For all the reasons you just mentioned, but also the climate aspect of it as well, and the implications around that.

36:32 And I know that you know here in Massachusetts, you know, as one of my fractional side things that I do is, I am a city councilor for my tiny little city out in western Massachusetts of 16,000 people, and we just passed a resolution.

36:47 Wait, which city? It's called East Hampton. Oh, lovely. Yeah, it's a great place to live. Highly recommend. I love the area. And we've been we just passed a resolution last week actually about it's not a full-on moratorium, but it's it's basically a way for us to investigate limiting the construction of data centers in the city because it's something that you know we had some constituents who were really concerned about it and they brought it to us and so we ended up passing this resolution.

37:19 Yeah. I think Lowell is the only city in the state that's actually put an actual moratorium in place at the moment. Although I know there's a lot of activity, but it's just sort of like a an example of some of these concerns that are kind of being raised around.

37:34 Okay, yes, we all want access and we want to use Claude and you know ChatGPT and the tools and we want to be able to do all the processing and you know think the big things and all the stuff that we've been talking about. But then there's sort of the the other side of it, which is well, what's the what's the impact on you know like I'm sure we've all seen the videos of people like walking out their back porches and the giant hums of the centers and you know water is a big concern out here because we have limited water sources and things like that.

38:04 So I'm curious what your thoughts are around bringing in the climate aspect of everything. Oh yeah so I the the language of our proposal was adapted in in a bill that was filed in Vermont a few weeks ago.

38:21 I just dropped it in the chat and yeah there there are quite a few references to data centers. And so there's a request for analysis of the relationship between energy and water demand and then cloud infrastructure deployment including data center energy and water consumption patterns.

38:40 As well as the environmental impact of data centers and cloud infrastructure generally, and so there's there's a number of specific recommendations around doing more analysis before data centers get implemented. And I think it's worth noting that our neighbor to the northeast, Maine, was just about to pass the country's first moratorium on data centers entirely.

39:04 I mean, that's a Pretty extreme measure, but the governor vetoed it three days ago, so it it is moving forward. But would have proceeded with the country's first moratorium. So I mean there there are so many competing perspectives on this issue, but it's a very very timely one.

39:24 And yeah, I do think that data center construction and energy consumption is very closely connected to the conversation on cloud infrastructure. So I have all these feelings about climate and the and this, and I'm so glad that we're having the conversation around it.

39:45 And I think it's so interesting that we are so focused on this when climate obviously has been such a huge issue for decades. Do you feel like there is some sort of, you know, like should we just be taking advantage of it? That people are paying attention to climate now, or like, should we be taking a more holistic approach and thinking about all of the other harms that are being caused due to human intervention?

40:10 I just think it's so interesting that we're like focused on this one thing because of this one thing. You know what I mean? I think the challenge with data centers and AI and energy consumption is it it's it represents a huge escalation of consumption, though it doesn't negate anything that came before.

40:28 But it is a profound threat to the environment if unaddressed, and so I think, like, to the extent that we can use this as an opportunity to shed a light on this big issue, I think we should, right? Any issue that, and it's also a very uniquely bipartisan issue.

40:45 There was an interesting article in the New York Times a few months ago about how both Republicans and Democrats at the hyperlocal level care deeply because of its connection to, as well, to energy costs and and the costs that are being transferred onto consumers. They said like electricity is sort of the new, the new eggs, like cost of eggs conversation.

41:06 But like really bringing people together. I think if we see an opportunity for bipartisan engagement on a climate-related issue, we should take it. And I also just think that the scale of impact is significant. And so it merits attention on its own. But of course, we shouldn't turn away from previous initiatives.

41:24 It should be additive, not. A replacement. Yeah, it's so funny because I guess like for listeners this won't be any kind of spoiler alert but you know I'm definitely in the Democrat camp over here when it comes to political meetings.

41:39 Shocker, I know. But one of the not rare but one of the the more unique times where I really was able to get a lot of Republican support around something I was pushing forward. At the city council level was last year again around water supply and access because a neighboring city wanted to or was thinking about putting in a battery storage system over our aquifer, which is the main source of water for a couple of the towns out here, and so we were basically supporting that that city in their efforts to not do that, even though some of the leadership wanted to bring it in, and that's when the Republicans really were like, we're with.

42:21 Few on this, and it was kind of funny because that's not usually the case for me. Yeah, but there are things that we can come together on. Yeah, and I think also like environmental conservation, protection, like those have had bipartisan influences in the years past, right?

42:38 We we all want to live in a pristine environment, and I think at the hyper local level, these political distinctions can get blurred. Very powerful. Well, I guess I want to talk a little bit about your educational side to you.

42:55 Yeah, yeah. Because you've kind of referenced a little bit already here and there, but you're currently in the process of doing a PhD at King's College Department of War Studies, which sounds very fancy and you know, wild, I guess, in these times of war. But you're you know you're doing that.

43:11 You're leading red teaming at Humane Intelligence, which we talked about in our last episode. You're shaping policy at DoorDash, which we mentioned briefly. You're you know advising, you're writing, you're doing all these things. You're building your family, you're sleeping, maybe, maybe not. I'm trying. Where do you see yourself in the near future?

43:28 And this is different than the question we just asked you about, like you know, future of work. But where do you see yourself in the near future? What are you most focused on in terms of all of these different pieces that are making up you know your thoughts and your research and and your preoccupations these days? Or or what are you worried about?

43:44 What are you most excited about? Yeah. Sure, sure. So my PhD is focused on online harm. Right now there's a chapter on the evolution of online harm typologies. So taxonomies, like how do we define online harm?

44:02 Thinking about its moral significance, the unique characteristics of online harm, the political economy of online harm. And the role of platforms and governance governments in addressing online harm. So it's really like a sort of a governance focused first chapter that's focused on social science and analytic philosophy type approaches.

44:26 The second chapter, although I'm in the process of discussing this with my advisor, is a little bit more of applied ethics. So taking a framework, just war theory, that has been applied for. Dozens and actually hundreds of years to explain justice in war, both in going to war and fighting war and leaving a war.

44:48 So three different sections, but typically held in the offline context between states or governments. And I would be translating those concepts like discrimination and responsibility into the online space.

45:06 Because I see there being a real parallel between wars that have online components and offline components, and then looking potentially at terrorism as it manifests online as a unique use case, and some other cases as well.

45:24 And so to me, I've worked in national security, I've worked in counterterrorism, but I've also worked in conflict resolution, and I I think it's a nice way to. Capture both the platform governance work that I've done as well as the conflict studies work that I've done.

45:41 And my hope would be to become some sort of maybe adjunct professor or lecturer. These days it's especially it's a philosophy PhD primarily. It the philosophy departments across the country have been heavily impacted by the transition away from social sciences and and humanities generally.

46:03 Towards the hard sciences and computer science and the Trump administration's research funding cuts and so it realistically it's hard to get like a full-time role in that environment but I'd love to have some sort of connection to the academic world where I can continue to do research and teach as well.

46:25 Well, I mean, if if any if history is any sort of guide, which as we all know, I mean. Is it though these days? I don't know, but if it is, it seems to me that the humanities will probably end up having a resurgence, given everything that's going on. So yeah, yeah.

46:40 I loved my philosophy degree in college. I have found it to be profoundly hopeful. So I I'm like forever marked by a philosophy education. There is this this this concept that I just learned about which is panpsychism.

46:58 and the hard problem of consciousness so I'm reading this book by Michael Pollan who's a very popular author and it's it's so and and just diving into it and it's an interesting conversation that I would love to have with you offline at some point about you know when we think about consciousness and is is conscious what is consciousness and it's a it's very it's a very heady philosophical Yes.

47:23 Conversation to be had. I think it would just be really interesting, given your background, to sort of nerd out about that or geek out about it, as we like to say. And it applies to this AI conversation, right? Exactly. Like sentience or consciousness, right? Because if if you've got like non-conscious matter producing some sort of conscious experience, right?

47:42 How how does that unfold? Exactly. Translate into the AI space. Yeah. You get it. Interesting. I was just asking the robot. The robot couldn't give me an answer. Course. No surprise there. And if if they had, would it have been the right answer? Right. They would have said it confidently. That's what I like about Claude.

47:58 Claude Claude can be a little bit more humble than than most humans. I sometimes I think. That's good. That's good. Yeah. I mean, intellectual humility is important. Exactly. You can't possibly know everything. Exactly. Well, this is. And what is it to know anyway? What is it? What is it to?

48:13 Oh, let's end it. Well, now we have the next episode. Now we're getting real deep into the philosophy. I love epistemology. Me too. What does it all mean? Oh, this is so great. Thank you so much, Theo. Really appreciate the second convo. My pleasure. Thank you.

48:29 Thank you, guys. Bye. We did it. Thank you so much, Theo, for coming back for part two and we hope that everyone listening enjoyed second part of our interview as much as we enjoyed continuing the conversation. Yes, and thank you as always so much for listening. Please do not forget to rate.

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49:10 Bye.