The Current State and Future of DEI Work with Chris Haigh

[00:06.8] Hi and welcome to the she Geeks out podcast, where we geek out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work making the world a better and brighter place. I'm Rachel. And I'm Felicia. Our guest today is Chris Hay, someone we have known forever.

[00:22.5] We've actually podcasted with Chris previously, so definitely check that out if you haven't already. But in this episode, we're catching up after several years to find out what is Chris up to? Where in the world are they and what are they focused on? These days? We get into a deep discussion about DEI and how the work has shifted over time, especially after 2020, and the dramatic shift towards DEI work across the board followed by the subsequent shift away.

[00:48.2] We talk about DEI as an industry, whether or not it's possible to engage in this kind of work in a capitalist society. And then we finish up with some thoughts on what the future has in store for all of us. But before we get into that, what are we getting into, Rachel? I don't know.

[01:04.7] Monday, January 12th, in the year of our Lord 2026, as we record this and you know, 2026. Coming in hot. Yeah, coming in very hot. Very spicy. Very spicy in a bad way. You know, I like spice, smelly, but not this kind of spice. So.

[01:23.9] Well, I will share with you some information I have not shared with you. So I actually went to a little networking event week is called In. In. In the Flesh. Wow. Yes. So it was really cool. It was from the Parlay House.

[01:40.8] They have chapters in a variety of cities and San Diego is one of the newest chapters. And, the theme, as they do monthly in person events. And the theme for January was basically burning your. The things that you don't like, the ideas that you are not interested in carrying with you into 2026.

[02:01.3] Like actually burning or metaphorically burning? No, like, well, actually burning pieces of paper that say the thing. Not physically burning the things that were on the pieces of paper. Yeah, that's what I meant. Yes. Because that would be very dangerous and I think especially given what they said, very impossible.

[02:18.5] So. But it was great. There were probably about 20. Yeah, there were probably about 20 of us. And and then after we did that, we were also asked to write a love letter, a love letter to ourselves, and with our real addresses on them, so that the host would then send out the letters at some point during the year and it would arrive on a day when it would hopefully be needed the most.

[02:47.9] Oh, that's really nice. I love that. So what I Mean, obviously you don't have to say what you wrote to yourself, but did it feel challeng to write to your future self? It. It didn't. I think because I'm in the. I do this, I kind of try to like, motivational self talk myself a lot anyway.

[03:07.0] Like, I definitely have a lot of peloton. You go, girl. Yeah. Tomorrow is not promised. Live for today. You got this. So. So I do. I do try to live in that mindset.

[03:23.4] Especially now when things feel particularly bl. I think it is important to be like, okay, you are here. You are healthy. Like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You know, I am still personally thankfully. Okay. And then.

[03:39.6] So what can I do to, like, help others? Like, that's the way I try to. I, try to think about it. But it was. It was really nice to be in person. It, you know, reminded me a lot of when we had in person events before. I know, before the pandemic.

[03:57.3] And it was, you know, it reminded me too, of, like, how important it is to be in community with other people. And, you know, and I know that you know that because of all the wonderful work that you do in your community. Yeah, I mean, I. I agree with you completely. Like, I think it's so funny because looking back at, like, our corporate workplace journey, we were so heavily focused on in person for so long, and then it went so dramatically to the other end of the spectrum where it was all virtual all the time.

[04:26.8] And I do feel like the last couple years has sort of been this, like, slow creeping back into, oh, we should leave the house and, like, put on what my husband and I call hard clothes. As opposed to soft clothes. Yes, exactly. You know, but I do think that a going out, out of the house is good for you.

[04:46.6] And being in person with other people, especially being in community with other people is really important, especially nowadays. I did not go to networking event, but I did go to a protest this past weekend, basically, you know, to protest ICE and what's been happening in Minneapolis and across the country.

[05:03.3] Not just there, but especially there from this past week. And, you know, it's certainly not the first protest I've been to over the last couple years. It won't be the last, but it just is always a really good reminder of how, like, it is so important. Right. And it can be scary, it can be joyful, it can be all the things, but it's really about connection.

[05:22.1] And, you know, one thing which maybe it's a bigger topic that we can get into at a later time time. But one thing that I did think was kind of interesting. I'm curious how this played out with your networking event. But for the protest that I went to, like, I live in a really crunchy granola, to put it lightly.

[05:38.5] And, you know, so, like, it's not surprising that a lot of people come out. But what was interesting, and it's a pattern I've been noticing more and more, is that there's a real age discrepancy with who's coming out. We have a couple high schools, including a really prestigious private boarding school right in town.

[05:54.9] There were no students or no kids. Like, there was no one younger than probably, I don't know, like 30 there. There was maybe one or two kids, with their parents. But most of the people were, were old and elderly and infirm.

[06:12.0] A, handful of 30s and 40s like myself. But it was really interesting and it was something I was reflecting on afterwards. And I was like, you know, what does this mean for, like, the future? And like, what does this even mean for right now? And like, is this, like, is this playbook or is this way of gathering or expressing our thoughts working?

[06:33.1] And I think from the standpoint of, like, the connection piece, it's still really important, but from the standpoint of, like, what are the goals out of it, I don't know. And so, obviously networking in a professional capacity is a little bit different than what I was doing. But I am curious, like, if you saw, any patterns with who showed up to your event that you went to?

[06:52.7] Yeah, obviously it was much smaller and it wasn't politically motivated. But I will say, you know, San Diego has always had a reputation of being purple to red. And I would say that since Trump 1.0, it's gone more purple to blue.

[07:09.6] And then the neighborhood that I live in in particular is, you know, I call it the Brooklyn of San Diego. So it's very crunchy also. And so it's not like that topic specifically came up, but the energy and a certain, certain things that entered the flames were definitely, anti maga sentiments.

[07:32.3] So that was encouraging. And the people that I spoke with were also very. It was real. It was a real diversity of, people who were doing very different things. You know, one woman was, she's an urban planner working on bike paths in the city.

[07:52.1] Another one is really interesting. She was an executive director for a nonprofit that focused on, assisted suicide, like end of life. And now she's actually running her own company to help doctors.

[08:08.1] Because I actually didn't know this, but in California that is legal here I didn't know that either. Yeah. And she was saying that a lot of Californians don't even know that it's legal. So she wants. Is it bad that I immediately thought good to know. Like it's not. I mean it's really interesting. Right.

[08:23.7] There's actually several states. I thought it was just Oregon, but there are several states where it's legal, but it's not really talked about. And. And I totally hear you. I know we are at a time when we think about what is the world going to look like and you know, and we don't want to have to suffer necessarily. So.

[08:40.3] So that was cool. And then another woman who runs like a rage her community here in San Diego, which is. Encourages spaces where women can scream and throw things in a nice safe space.

[08:56.5] So it was like really nice mix. Yeah. And you know, array of ages, obviously not. Not under 21 given the. The group. But But I hear what you're saying and I think I've thought a lot about the. The purpose behind protesting.

[09:12.1] You know, what, what is. What is the value? And I think a lot of it is in community. And And I think that if it is about change, like true change, not to throw chr of their. Their business in the. In the space.

[09:28.1] But, but if it is about that, then what does it look like for younger folks to show up? And what does change look like? It might be something that's very different from protesting because as we all know, there's lots of different ways. I mean, one thing I think can really we.

[09:43.7] I think about that we can all do is like lean out more of the system. I know. Can I tell you I've been wanting to get a landline again. Oh my gosh. Because I' so addicted to my phone. It's really bad. But yeah, I mean I think I agree with so much and there's so much to talk about around everything you brought up.

[10:04.7] Really quickly. I was just watching a video earlier today about again the whole situation last week and this. It was this white woman who was talking and she was basically calling out the whole point around like how, for example, you know, like, There's been so much discourse and reactions and just so much happening and being talked about and just a couple minor points to pull out.

[10:26.3] One thing was that a lot of folks have been talking. Talking about the practice of using the phrase say her Name, and how that's something that really originated for black people and for black women in particular, because they so historically get overlooked and don't get the kind of attention, that white people or white women do.

[10:46.4] And so, again, it's like this really interesting discourse that's been happening online where people have been saying, say her name about Renee Goode. And it's. And other people have been saying it's not to dismiss what happened to her, but that's not for her, because we are all talking about it because she was a white woman who was acting as an ally.

[11:05.4] And then what this person was talking about was basically like, this is what allies are told and taught about, especially white people, to use your bodies. Because it's not about saying you'll never get hurt or killed. The whole point of it is that if and when you do get hurt or killed, you will be highlighted and talked about because you are a white person, because it's breaking that mold, essentially, and that this is one of our first steps into dismantling white supremacy.

[11:34.3] And I just thought that was so powerful. And it's kind of, like, been sticking with me, since, like, hour or two that I've watched this video. So I guess catch me tomorrow, but I'm. I think it will stick with me longer. But, you know, just, again, like, kind of taking that back down to, like, the. The.

[11:52.5] The smaller level, like, my protest. Like, we're a really small city, 16,000 people. It's barely a city. It's like a town, right? Everyone knows everybody. It's very communal. And at the same time, like, you still have to think about, hey, we could gather together and something could happen. Could absolutely happen.

[12:07.6] And, like, what is the per. Again? What is the purpose of that? And the purpose is to a show that, like, we're not afraid. Or maybe it's not that. Maybe it's. We can be afraid, but we're still going to come together because it's important and it's powerful. And it's showing that even though, you know, black and brown people, indigenous people have been murdered and hurt and beaten and all the things for so long, if it's like.

[12:33.7] Honestly, in my mind, I'm like, if this is what it takes, if we need white people, if we need allies, to be experiencing the same kinds of things, like, if that's gonna be what it takes to start this dismantling process or to start people really coming together and building those coalitions and connections, like, I don't want to say it's Worth it.

[12:50.6] But I think it's just really powerful. It's a really powerful moment. We're so. I agree and I hope that, I hope that her, her death isn't in vain. I know this is like so heavy. I think, honestly, I think the 2017 protests, all of those protests and then the 2020 protests, I am a little jaded, I have to say, to be.

[13:16.0] If I'm going to be really honest. I am a little jaded about the, the power of protesting. I'm like even watching what's happening right now in Iran is like really wild. Like, I mean, wow, talk about an iron fist. They don't care how many they kill and how much does the world care?

[13:33.3] You know, at the end of the day it's really interesting to see how this is all going to play out. And right now I think you're right. I think our bodies are the things that at this point matter the most. And so how are we like showing up and using them, at this time?

[13:54.0] So I think it'd be very interesting to see if, what would happen if you know, 4% of us opted out of the system completely. Which means, you know, no shopping, calling in sick to work. Obviously this is privilege, right? So as but many of us, as many of us who can, can do it just taking that time and like essentially going on a strike, going on a general strike.

[14:18.1] Because unfortunately I think the only thing that really people pay attention to is money. And so if it hurts their bottom line financially, then perhaps. But I think we're running out of time for that to matter as well. So, so heavy.

[14:34.6] Well, with that in mind, let's Chris tell us all the solutions to the terrible place that we're in. I mean, listen, obviously we recorded this with Chris, not this past week, so you know, I think we recorded one last month in December. Y.

[14:49.9] Take that, take that. Keep that in mind as you listen. But yes, I think it's still, still an important conversation that is really relevant for where we are today and where we're. And we don't know where that will be. So. Yeah, so get, get ready to hear more heavy conversations with them.

[15:07.5] So good times. Our lovely guest today is Chris Hague, the founder of True Change Associates. We are so excited to have you here, Chris. Woohoo. Yet again. I know it's been a long time. It has been I think like 376 years if I, if my math is correct.

[15:27.9] Give her take five. Yeah, give or take five. But there is but there is another podcast episode out there with you. So actually any listeners who are listening should stop and listen to that one first and then come back to this because I think a lot has changed. That would be actually interesting. I should listen to that.

[15:43.5] Wait, can we stop so I can go? No, that was like five years ago or more. At least it was more than five years. I think it was like 2018 or something like that. So, yeah, we'll definitely put it in the show notes. So, so no worries on that. So, you know, for those who decided they don't want to listen to the other episode, tell us all about who you are.

[16:07.7] Who am I? Who are you? I'm still discovering that. But, well, I'm Chris Haig, I use they pronouns and I run a consulting company called True Change Associates that I started just over 10 years ago. Now focus on diversity, equity, inclusion.

[16:25.6] And within the, within my business. Basically I've got a small number of clients where I work with more long term and it really focuses on education, strategy, and coaching actually.

[16:44.2] And so it's definitely whatever combination a client needs of that from the strategy being assessment, visioning, you know, goal setting. But also we need some education as we're doing this too. Right. But I try to really do long term work with clients that help, to move the needle a little bit.

[17:01.5] Right. And before that, I mean, I've been doing DEI work for Quite a while now as I think about my age. Like maybe 30 years. Like before it was called DEI. Right. Before it was called DEI, definitely. So it's definitely been an evolution to sort of be a part of it.

[17:20.4] Yeah, it's not like I, you know, in, in high school I was like, I'm going to be a DEI practitioner. You know, just kind of. I mean, I don't think that there's. That language existed back then. Right. No, yeah, so. So yeah, that's the quick snippet of me.

[17:39.5] We want to get more into the beyond the snippets and into the good stuff. So, I mean we kind of reference this a little bit because we've known you for a while now and obviously we podcasted with you before. But what's changed for you since our last conversation, which again, I think was probably 2018.

[17:56.3] I think you're right, Rachel, on that. So it's been a little bit of a blip. But maybe we can just start with like, where are you in the world right now? If you're comfortable sharing that, like, where are you? How'd you get there? What's going on for you, like, right now? Sure. I'm happy to start with where in the world I am, because where I am right now is something I would not have ever thought of in 2018.

[18:18.3] I am living in Portugal now with my wife. We moved here last summer. But I, I do feel like I want to put that in context because of the current context. There are a lot of people fleeing the country that is the United States for a lot of reasons. Whether it be around immigration, trans, queer, whatever it is.

[18:38.0] There's a lot of people and it makes sense. Right? And as somebody that is a part of the trans community, I definitely have know, a lot of people, struggling and trying to figure out a place to be home and feel home and be comfortable. I think we lucked out being in Portugal because it wasn't like we were fleeing to come here.

[18:54.2] But we are in a place that is, actually on some, if you look at some global indexes on LGBT rights, Portugal's ahead of the U.S. just saying. But we ended up here because my wife and I are the entirety of our relationship, and We've been together 19 years now. Wow.

[19:11.7] Congratulations. We've always talked about living in Europe. Always. It's always been part of our conversation, but we've never were able to do it. For whatever reason. We, I mean, 20 years ago, we were in different places. And then maybe, you know, my wife was in grad school or I was starting a business or whatever it was, it just never worked out.

[19:31.7] But my wife is a teacher, and so over the past few years, she's been really, burnt out probably since COVID and really struggling whether or not to find if teaching is still her home. And so about a year ago, this topic came up about Europe.

[19:48.7] And, there's this whole international school circuit where people travel all over to teach. And we've heard, though it was very. It's very, very, very, very competitive, which was definitely the experience. So we're just like, like, why don't you just throw your name in a couple of app, a couple of open positions.

[20:05.0] Let's just see what happened. But we never thought anything would happen because it is so competitive. And last summer she got offered a job in Portugal, and we moved six weeks later. And it was. I would not even, even six months ago or, four or five months ago, I couldn't have predicted this.

[20:21.0] So we are here because of that opportunity. Which came to us at a time where we could do it, where we had the ability to do it. And my business was at a place where I could work from here and go home, to the. When I need to. So I feel incredibly blessed and loved.

[20:36.0] But I want to be clear, I didn't run away. I do feel actually less anxiety. I actually feel pretty safe as somebody who's part of the trans community. But it doesn't mean my heart and my work is not still firmly planted in the U.S. and during these times.

[20:52.5] But, I feel very blessed. So that's the biggest thing in terms of where I am now. And then did you want more, like, in terms of, like, how the business has changed or. Yeah, well, I just want to.

[21:07.6] Before we even get into that, I just want to just say, you know, I really appreciate you naming that, you know, you. You aren't abandoning the country as it stands right now. And. And I understand that that comes from a place of, like, really honoring the fact that, you know, some people are very privileged to be able to do that, and a lot of people can't do that.

[21:29.7] And so I really appre your solidarity with those who, frankly can't ensue, who are still at risk. We certainly talk about it, too. I think in some level, I really want to just shout out Phylicia as well, for sort of doubling down on her community locally to do a lot of the work that she's doing to support folks and really being grounded there.

[21:52.4] And so I just want to name that because it does feel like it's a time right now where everyone's like, we have, certain identities, we. We do certain work, whatever. Like, Phylicia and I joke, like, we're probably on some list somewhere. Like, weird. You know, it's a. It's a scary, weird time.

[22:09.1] And so I just wanted to honor that. But I would love to, talk about sort of how the work has shifted for you over, you know, I mean, really since COVID I would say, you know, since 2020 and on. Because I don't think we've really had an opportunity to sort of dig into that. What is that?

[22:27.1] What does that look like? Because there's been so. Has happened since then, so. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, boy. I don't know where to start with that. You're like, so much has happened since COVID I think, you know, a lot of us doing this work, like, when Covid first hit, like, I have this vivid memory because I used to have this whiteboard in my office.

[22:48.5] And I would travel a lot for clients of getting an email that canceled something and I would go up to my whiteboard and I would. And erase it. And then another email that something else was canceled. And then all of a sudden my whiteboard was empty and I was like, oh my gosh. Right. And I know it wasn't just our industry, but it was everybody so uncertain, but it was like, wow, like what is going to happen with this?

[23:09.6] And then obviously there became such a huge, interest I will say, because, I don't know, some of it was, well, the summer of 2020. Right. Sorry, my dates are all off. Right.

[23:26.2] With, with George Floyd and all the other, you know, all the other horrible tragedies that hid the news. And all of a sudden everybody wanted to sort of do this work. And it was such a range of people who were really intentional about it. Too performative to.

[23:41.6] I mean it was just. The work just kind of exploded. And so I sort of got super busy again. I think you all did too. And then it was then, there's a lot of people also running into do this work. A lot of, A lot of cons since. Some with expertise, some without. Right?

[23:57.1] You just sort of try because there was a lot of opportunity. Right? So equals dollar signs, right. In that sense. And it just exploded on so many levels and there's so much work being done. But I think within, when we think about dei, it's.

[24:12.1] It's something that has always been grassroots, has always evolved. You know, you don't get. And like if you go into business, you'll get, you'll go get an mba, right? You know, and so, so there's a lot of different ways of approaching this work. Some good and some bad. And So that kind of made sense to me.

[24:30.4] Kind of thinking about the backlash today that there's just so much happening and I don't want to say the word unregulated because I don't think our work to be regulated. But I think there are so many misperceptions of what this work is and how we do this work. And so I think that has been a lot of, of my work is really trying to explain to clients exactly what I do.

[24:55.8] And if you sign up for me, with me, this is what we're doing. And it's long term and it's not one and done. And your one keynote during February is not necessarily changed culture. And so how do we actually get to the commitment.

[25:11.1] And so really sort of doing a lot of education on that. And what really works. I think too during that time and since that time, what I've noticed because like I said earlier, right, I offer, I do education strategy work and coaching.

[25:28.5] What I've noticed is an increase in ask for coaching and specifically related to dei. And I do think that has been a shift because also during this time of growth and interest of the work, there was also a lot of canceling and there's a lot of.

[25:47.4] And so there's a lot of people who are very honestly wanting to do this work but are afraid. Right. And don't want to mess up and all that kind of stuff. But the reality is we're going to mess up in this work. And so how do we create a safe or space where people can wrestle and be pushed? Right.

[26:05.8] And sort of try to grow their confidence and their competency. So it's interesting. I'm just, just have done a lot more coaching than I ever have over the past few years. But I guess that's where I would start, before getting to sort of the present day, but which is a whole another conversation.

[26:25.9] Well, I mean, let's, let's talk a little bit about it. So, you know, yeah, I mean we, and we talked before offline, off podcast about the last five years especially and all the wildness that's happened and the influx of people and then the abrupt, you know, shoving out of the these people and all the dynamics that you've touched on lightly here and there and you know, all that stuff.

[26:47.8] But, I, I'm personally like, I, I think it's interesting to hear that coaching around DEI specifically has actually grown for you in the last couple years because, I mean, and you noted this yourself, but like there has been a backlash and you know, we saw it on our end as early as I want to say. What was it, Rachel?

[27:05.5] Like mid 2023, I think we started seeing it. It's basically once affirmative action was, is, overturned. That's basically when companies were like, oh, oh yeah. And so like, you know, I think hearing that, and I don't know if it's on the individual level or if it is more organizationally, but hearing that there is still like a demand and it's actually grown for you is actually really, heartening to hear in a lot of ways.

[27:30.8] But I am curious because you did say like, you know, today. So I know, like what's today. Like, tell me more in my best facilitator. Style. Tell me more, tell me more. It's the best, best phrase. But can I actually, I want to go back to one more thing around sort of the, the changes that get into this, into this.

[27:51.1] Because we're talking about like clients. Right. Wanting more coaching for it. Because I, I forgot to say this earlier, but I think it's important what I have. Note what I noticed too over that time. That window of time was a lot of people in DEI roles desperate for support.

[28:09.6] That makes sense. Yeah. Like More so like there's always my people in these roles, but all of a sudden everybody decided they were going to have a chief diversity or something and they were going to put somebody in there. And sometimes they put people in those positions who had true, you know, DEI experience. And not just the content, but also, you know, understanding organizational development and all that kind of stuff.

[28:30.7] And sometimes they just put people there based on an identity. Right. And, and we've all like that has happened to a lot of people, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But there's been a lack of support. Right. And so it's not this. You could go into that with passion and then change a company. Right.

[28:47.1] You sort of have. And so a lot of people, and this was documented too, that the burnout rate was huge. And she had all of these people who wanted to do good, were lacking support. And so I think that is a big thing for, just for our, our, our industry. I don't even know if we can call ourselves an industry.

[29:04.9] Well, I actually think we should, I think we should call it an industry. I mean, and to your point earlier about like the regulation or deregulation or whatever, I mean, I agree with you. Like, we don't want to become like so tightly bound up because we want to be expansive. But at the same time, like it has been such a wild west situation.

[29:21.4] But I think that not calling it an industry in some ways does it a, disservice. Because to your point, like, and you know, we've talked about this so much and so I like, I don't want to spend the rest of the time just getting into that, that rabbit hole, but to sort of like do the tldr, like especially in the last five years and with the influx of people, there were so many people who came in who had really great intentions and a lot of them did really well and a lot of them didn't do so well.

[29:45.2] And it wasn't through ill intent or just trying to make a Buck or whatever, but obviously money is part of it. We still live in a capitalistic society. But because so much of DEI work is centered around like identity and because there was such an explosion of interest, we kind of like, like as an industry quoting that aggressively set a lot of people up to fail because we were like oh, just because you look a certain way or you have this identity or you have this experience, you can do all these other things.

[30:13.8] And I know we have talked specifically between the three of us about the influx of people coming either just from like lived experience or from higher ed and nonprofit spaces into corporate. And I know your jam is higher headed nonprofit and our sort of space has historically been more on the corporate side.

[30:31.8] And I personally firsthand seen people who have been left out to dry because they came from different spaces and didn't understand the spaces that they were thrust into and then didn't even understand how to navigate or advocate for what they needed because that support wasn't built in automatically.

[30:49.5] So I think that's a really important dynamic. And I know, you know we're all, we've all talked about this ourselves but it's just been, it's been I think going back to the original point, like if we don't call it an industry then it just allows further non sense honestly to kind of just run wild in a lot of ways.

[31:09.9] I mean it's so complicated. There was good, bad and ugly. Right. And it's just, it was, it was so complicated and, and back to us like as a, as a profession and I will, I will get to the present day. I promise this will actually lead there like so I, like there was, I, I don't know about you all but I was getting so many requests from people wearing these hats and these roles from all industries.

[31:29.6] Like you know, how do I, I skill up or how do I, how do I learn? Like where can I go for support? Like people. We a lot of people are set up for failure. And I was having this conversation with a colleague of mine. A colleague of mine who dear friend too.

[31:48.3] Her name is Maria Marukian and she was having the same thing. And so we a couple years ago tried to do like a, like a program, a workshop kind of built a community of just DEI practitioners. It's called Ember. And the first pilot was just unbelievable because we created the space where people would come together, do some education because we always need to like none of us in this work are done.

[32:14.9] Like I, we're Not we. I hate it when people call us subject matter experts because it implies we are done right. And so how do we do our education, but also how do we think about not just like the DEI context, but also organizational change, individual change, coach, like, all that.

[32:31.1] How do we actually work, on a sustainable. Within an organization? But then also how do we find support and rely on each other, people that we can call out and stop thinking only about our industry, our one industry. Like, you know, how can nonprofit, work with government, work with education, work with corporate?

[32:48.9] And so we sort of built that and we ran two programs that were phenomenal and people felt like this is what we needed. And so we decided. So Maria and I decided, this was a. During this was probably 2023 to 2024, we decided, okay, let's. We.

[33:04.0] We need to do something with this. Let's make a nonprofit. So we had a whole business plan and we consulted with some funders and stuff like that. And we were about to turn the corner because we needed funding to do this. And we were about to turn, the corner into actually having every.

[33:19.5] Everything ready to ask for the funding. And that would have been Q1/1 of 20, 2025. Yeah. And we all know that that was an amazing time to be doing DEI work. I don't understand what the problem was.

[33:36.3] Like, literally, if we were three months earlier, we probably would have gotten the fud dig, right? And because all these, these funding consultants were telling us, this is a shirt, you no problem. And then we turned and then. So the first. That was our original goal. So January of Feb of 2025, and nobody would touch nobody because of what was happening with Trump and the sort of DEI backlash, if you will.

[33:58.9] So unfortunately, Amber is just kind of sitting there waiting for some love, but we have not let go. We're going to come back at some point when we can figure out how to fund and make it happen. But, and if anybody listening hasn't. But I share that. To say how the pendulum can swing, right? From literally three months before.

[34:15.7] We had all these folks, who knew all about funding or like, no problem, you got this right? To now. Wow. To nobody. Everybody is scared. Well, we thought Kamala Harris was going to be president because we had clown saying they're eating the cats and dogs and people are wondering why.

[34:34.2] Anyway, it's fine. Well, I mean, it's not fine, but it's not fine. I just have to tell myself that or I just go under the covers. But, I Wonder if, if. Do you think that if you positioned embers in a different way, like if you just stayed away for.

[34:51.9] And you know, this sort of goes to this idea of like, you know, changing the name. We've talked about this before where this wasn't always called dei. Do you change it to sort of like, still do the work, but just have it be called something else? Like, does that appeal to you or you, like, if we do this, then we're, we're giving it.

[35:13.1] Oh, I, well, let me start with something you said. So it wasn't always called dei, but it wasn't because there was an aversion to the language. It was an evolution of our understanding of the work. So it started as.

[35:29.1] Even before diversity, it was like multicultural, right? And so, you know, like, I don't, like, colleges had multicultural offices and things like that. Right. And so. And that was like getting, everybody together and sort of celebrating everybody. And then as we sort of had a deeper understanding of identity, right.

[35:45.0] And how things worked, so we kind of came diversity, and then it came diversity and inclusion. Because diversity is not inclusion, right? So you can have the presence of difference, but it doesn't mean you have inclusion. And so now we're trying to create an inclusive environment. And then equity didn't come until, I think after 2000.

[36:01.4] And I was psyched when it came because that was actually, there is more of an understanding that equity takes us to the systems level. And you can't change this work until you change. Change the systems. We can do all that we can to sort of be nice to each other and welcome each other and be inclusive with each other and build our skill set.

[36:20.9] But we need to look at the systems. We're talking laws, policy, ideology, all that kind of stuff. So equity came in early 2000, or so. And I remember with clients saying they wanted to add the E. And I was like, okay, sit down, because I'm going to tell you what that really means if you want to add the E. So there was more of an evolution of how DEI came came.

[36:38.9] And so now with the backlash around language, I think it's very different in the sense of, going back to this, these messy years of so many people doing this work, the lack of support, the setup for failure, all this kind of stuff, there's a lot of frustration. There was cancel culture, there was all this stuff.

[36:54.2] And so a lot of people have felt it did damage. All of that did damage, right? And so it's not, it's not really working, so to speak. And so then to go to this place, okay, we're not dei, is illegal. Which, what that says to me as you.

[37:12.6] As you dive into this, when all this was happening in 2025, I was reading all this stuff because I obviously do the work, but I want to know what is being said. And if you read it closely, it's basically not using DEI correctly. It's not using the word diversity. Correct. Correct.

[37:28.8] It's not using the inclusion. It's not using. Right. I'm thinking of, like, the critical Race theory, like, brouhaha. And it was like, totally a, I. I don't even want to say a misunderstanding, because it wasn't. But it was a total, just complete difference for what it actually was, so. Yeah, but nobody teaches critical Race theory to elementary, school students.

[37:44.9] That is like, that's so all. I mean, maybe they're like little tiny lawyers in training, but they're not so. Well, isn't Critical Race Theory a book that is written by anyone that isn't white? That's. That's, I believe, what the understanding is.

[38:03.0] Oh, man. I'm talking the whole time about credit. It's about. It's going back to systems and just understanding how laws are. You have to sort of sometimes take race into account. If you look at the history of our laws in the U.S. which I. We could do a whole semester course on that if you want. Well, well, Chris, I have a very big question for you that I just thought of as you were.

[38:23.3] As you were sharing. This is a really big one, so I'm intrigued, man. Can, like. I'm scared. Is it. Are, you ready? Is it pos. Is it possible to have the ideal D, E, I.

[38:43.1] Diversity, equity, inclusion, equity in this capitalist. In a capitalist system, in a capitalist society? Is that even possible? Do we think? I think it's possible. How? Wow. I don't know the answer to that.

[38:58.3] Well, okay, I like her up. This podcast is over. I 100% think it's possible. Right. You know, there's. There's always been stuff something called compassionate capitalism and things like. Like, so I think it is possible. But here's the thing.

[39:14.3] Like, we have to figure this out collectively. Right? We have to figure this out. So I can't just tell you, if we do xyz, we're going to be here and this is what it's going to look like, right? It's. We. This has to sort of. We have to collectively define that. And, and it, I'm thinking about emergent strategy.

[39:30.9] Adrian Brown book. Right. Sorry. What are you, you got something to say, Rachel? I see it, I know. Well, it's just, well, here's why I would push back on this. And, and I'm literally just thinking about this right now. Like I'm literally for the first time like thinking this through is if capitalism ultimately is an extractive system, it is by design extractive.

[39:52.7] You are extracting work, production, labor for the mass, the most amount of financial benefit. How can we have true equity in a system that is defined by that? I don't think, you have to practice capitalism that way where you have such a divide between entry level and CEO.

[40:14.6] I don't think you have to practice capitalism that way. Well then, I mean, well then isn't that just socialism? I mean don't we get to that point of where we're just talking about more socialism? Because that's what I, I, that's, that's my, that would be my argument is I think as long as we are in this capitalist system is this, we're, it feels like we're in this late stage capitalist society in these, in these death throws where it's like, let's extract and only think short term.

[40:40.0] I literally just had a conversation with someone who was like, think it's really hard to do. We're talking about doing futures work and talking about what, what it's going to be like. Phylicia and I were talking with someone about this yesterday. Talking about what, what your company might look like 10 years from now. But you know, if, if any company is publicly traded or venture backed, they're not, they're thinking certainly publicly traded.

[41:02.6] They're not thinking anything beyond the next quarter and how to extract as much profit in the next quarter. So that's why they're not thinking about what's happening ten years from now. So, and as long as they're the ones that are dictating the way we are all running things, then how do we get to this point?

[41:17.7] We need new government. Okay, goodbye. And now I'm done. What you said is like what, like we created this, we as humans created where we're at so we could create something else. And I think that's it. And is it capitalism or socialism? I don't know what it is.

[41:33.5] And maybe it's something brand new and that's what like we have to, we have to engage in possibility thinking for what, where we need to go. I mean this is liberation, right? Is thinking about it and then Finding a way to sort of get there. And I could talk about liberation for a while, too, right. So I don't know the exact answer, but I believe it.

[41:49.7] Right. And I think there are. I can't think of one right now because I wasn't prepared for this question. But there are companies, you know, where. Where it. There it is more flat, if you will. There's more profit, whatever. And so there are rays of hope there, right? Of people.

[42:06.5] Not everybody is sort of that evil. I don't know. Everything's for the stakeholders. CEO and I walk away with billions of dollars. Right. It's. So I. I have to believe it's possible. And I think. I think that's important.

[42:22.6] I. I wonder if, Because I. This is such an interesting conversation. I wonder if. Because I. I think, like, I. I agree with you, Chris, to a large extent. Around, like, I think there needs me to be perhaps something else, something new, something different. Different. And if we are going to go back to.

[42:38.0] Because I think one of the things that Rachel and I have, I don't want to say struggled with, but that we definitely wrestled with and, like, talked a lot about, especially over the last several years, has been around this idea of, like, the fact that we are a capitalistic society. And, you know, especially for all three of us, like, we're all business owners.

[42:53.1] And so part of, like, what we were focused on is to make money. Like, we have to make money to live in this society that we're living in. Pay the bills. And how do you, like, bounce? Balance the equity, work with, like, the fact that, like, we need clients and we need money. We need to, like, you know, make money and all that good stuff.

[43:08.2] But I wonder if, like, if we're gonna, If we're. And actually, let me just pause for a moment and go back to another thought, which is like, I think in the, like, in the. In the space where we have people who are engaged in this kind of work, like, let's just call it like, dei, practitioners.

[43:26.8] There is a really large range I've seen around people. Like, some people are like, like, you know, we'll just, like, conform and like, we'll. We'll call it whatever and like, we'll kind of like go along and get along. And then other people are like, we need to literally break everything and burn everything down. There's like, yeah, yeah, right. So.

[43:42.1] And then I think, like, you know, we're probably somewhere in the middle of that, but, like, there's. Are we, though? Are we, though? I Don't know. But, you know, for my point right now, like, there, there is a wide range. And I think that's also why people sometimes get. Have different reactions, because they're like, they're talking to someone who's like, really more on like, the compliant side.

[44:00.0] Then they, they hear or they talk to someone who's like, burn. And it's like a lot of extremes. But if we are going to say, okay, we have this capitalistic society and we're not going to like, just go full, like, society terrorist way and like, burn everything and like, rip everything apart if we're going to try to work with what we have.

[44:17.5] And there are definitely a lot of people who are in that, in that sort of lane if we're going to try and work with what we have because it is a capitalist society, for the moment, I wonder if, going back to your point, Chris, if maybe some of that, like, trying to make it better but still working with. At the confines is more about, like, how do we sort of like, extract the profit, but in a way that gives back?

[44:42.0] Because I think that's part of the issue right now is like, we have hoarding, right? So, like, I think about billionaires. And then I was also like, reflecting the other day about how, and I'm not saying this is good necessarily, but how back in the day we had these really wealthy people, like the Vanderbilts of the world, and, you know, people who were, like, deaf, definitely extracting massive amounts of profit.

[45:05.1] But, and I'm not saying, again, I'm not like, saying they were the pinnacle of what we should aspire to, but they were putting some of it back into society. They were building libraries and buildings and roadways and public infrastructure and, like, do, you know, schools and things? And so we don't.

[45:20.1] We're not really seeing that today. We're just seeing rich people getting richer and not giving anything back and instead being like, fuck everybody. We're gonna replace you all with robots, move to Mars and make tons of money. So I want. There's, a ground. If we're gonna work within a capitalistic framework, is there a space where there is a possibility to have some kind of, like, we're gonna, like, make money, but it's gonna, like, go back in. I don't know.

[45:44.9] And then that's just a question I'm, like, thinking about right now. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I also think, you know, you said we're not seeing them today. I would. And I don't know the answer to this, but I would challenge that in saying, I just think we, we, we, we're seeing all of the negative. Right.

[46:00.9] That I guarantee. There are companies and organizations and people who are running, organizations in a respectful, inclusive, equal way. They exist but they don't forget the, the headlines. They never get the news. Right. But you're also at the same time how wealth inequality is absolutely sickening.

[46:20.1] It's absolutely horrible. Right. I, mean how many billions do you need really? So like, so yeah, I'll take a few, I think. So we are stuck in that. Absolutely. But I would, I, I, I, I think I know that there are examples out there of how to do this.

[46:38.6] There absolutely are, there are, there are incredible companies and organizations that are doing things. There are a lot of worker owned, employee owned, companies, co ops that are out there. But there are, the number is actually shockingly small. Like it's in the thousands.

[46:55.8] And, and it, what's, it's worth noting that it's, and there's so it's so hard for these companies to do it. This is where it's like, it's very interesting to me because I'll give you an example. When Felicia and I started getting employees, we had talked about doing an employee owned, worker owned co op system.

[47:18.5] And the advice we got from our lawyer is please, for the love of God, do not do that, don't do that, do that. Systems. Systems. Exactly. This is my point. We, it is, it is. It is, it, it's like such a big hill to climb.

[47:36.6] So I give so much credit for the companies that are doing good and that don't need to feel that, that, that extractive pull, that, that these systems are designed to, to create. So you know it.

[47:51.7] But it is, it is a real deep challenge. And I'm sorry that I took us down this scary rabbit hole, but you are, what you just said is exactly why we need to keep doing this work. Because these are when we talk about equity, those are the systems we need to change.

[48:10.9] And it takes more than a thousand companies of doing that. Right. It takes like there's actually, even if you think about the stock market, like there's more people investing in socially responsible companies now than there ever have been. And so it's, there are but it hasn't changed yet.

[48:30.1] It hasn't. So we have to keep doing it. That's the thing. Yeah, it's just, it's tricky because with, I don't mean to be a negative Nancy. Look, I am very excited about the possibility of Living in a, in a better world. So I won't go down the whole ESG rabbit hole.

[48:46.5] And But I would love to just switch to a interesting little nugget that might take us to another little place. And I'm another black hole. Another little black hole, that Felicia and I have noticed.

[49:01.6] And I'm curious. We're both curious about how. So. Sorry. We're definitely going off script. We're like, let's just ask them questions. We're doing it. We're doing these weird questions. Yeah. Well, hopefully this will be. I promise this will not be about like challenging our current system.

[49:20.5] But what we have found is that there has been an interesting trend with the folks in that do our work, lately that are going more into sort of these other little realms like that are a little bit more. Woo. And I don't know if you have seen this trend with any.

[49:37.9] Because I know that you, you work with so many people, like sort of a different group of folks. But we've seen people that sort of are like doing more around like breath work. Somatic, which, but also like, you know, manifesting and time travel and like magicians and like, it's just, it's a whole thing that.

[49:58.1] It's just been really interesting to see people sort of like diving into this space. I'm curious if you've seen any of that or you're like, what the hell are you talking about right now? Now, a little of both. But, I mean, I think I, I have, I work with some, some colleagues who often will bring in a, a piece of breath work or something into a workshop or a facilitated space because it, it kind of becomes a nervous system.

[50:24.1] Right. And this work is hard. So I've always seen pieces of it throughout. But to that extent I have not. But also I don't know much about all of those mediums, but I do know a lot of them been around for a really long time. Right. And so, I don't, I can't speak on it to be honest.

[50:41.1] Cause it's not something I dove into. Yeah, yeah. But I do believe, I do believe like the body. Like when I talk about this work, there's a lot of people that are so quick to just solution. Figure out the answer. Right. And I'm always talking about this is head and heart work.

[50:57.9] Like, and so the heart. Favorite phrases. Yeah. The heart means this is. This is body work too. Right. And so, so I think it connects to that in some way. From my perspective. But I would love to learn more about how it's being used, but I'm not sure it's something I'll bring into my.

[51:15.2] We definitely have some other podcast episodes that you are welcome to listen to because we have time traveled this year, Chris. We have done. We've gone down this woo rabbit hole. But it actually, it's interesting because it kind of connects to something you mentioned just a little while ago, which was. I forget what was.

[51:30.4] It was in the context of it's Covid brain already. But, you did say something about possibility, things, thinking. And I think that's where a lot of it is coming up, at least in sort of how I've been seeing it is around a lot of folks, whether or not they're directly involved in like DEI work or not.

[51:47.6] I think especially folks from minoritized or marginalized communities who have been feeling a lot of weight and brunt of all the crap that we've been dealing with, especially the last couple years, have been feeling like there's got to be something else out there. And I think, you know, to point to our conversation we just had around like capitalistic societies or not, like, I think a lot of people are like looking for something different.

[52:11.7] And so the woo, if you will, is like maybe providing people alternative pathways to like even just get into a mental framework around like what else could be or how else could we be thinking about stuff. But like, we've been doing a lot of research around like futures thinking and futurism.

[52:29.5] And I think the idea of like allowing ourselves to open up to other possibilities is a big piece of that. So I actually think whether or not you're like full woo or not, not you are engaged in a piece of it too, to some extent. Because it's exactly that, right? It's like, how do we tune in but also open up to other ways of being?

[52:50.9] And that's what so much of this work is about. Right? It's like saying, here's where we are right now, here's where we want to be. But also here's another place that we might want to be that we've never thought about before because we've never allowed ourselves to think about it. Right. Yeah. Does that ring true for you or am I just. Oh, definitely. Well, in that case, it's not new in that sense.

[53:08.6] Because if you think about liberation and liberation work, and so many folks, especially women of color, have written about that, talked about that, I mean, forever. Right? And so anything I have learned, I'm standing on the backs of that, right? And so maybe more of this, more openness to wooness is also a rejection of whiteness and white supremacy.

[53:27.3] But also I'm also like, are we co opting it too? Like, I'm also kind of like what's happening here, right? There's so many dynamics there. But this idea of liberation, liberation theory, possibility, thinking, this is not new. This has always been around. And so, so it's really understanding that the world that we live in right now, right?

[53:48.3] Is what we live in right now. But we have to sort of believe and understand that we will get to another place. But also. So it's a vision for where we're going. But also it's about liberation in the current moment. Meaning as I'm working towards this place, in this moment moment, I could create a liberatory environment with you.

[54:12.4] And so I'm creating the vision into being right now. Right? And so there's this, it's funny, I saw this article not that long ago about creating psychologically safe islands, where, because there's so, there's just, I mean there's just so much, and there's so much tension everywhere and it's really hard even in companies to sort of have a healthy culture because there's so much going on and it's a lot, it's going to take a lot of work.

[54:35.3] So this article was like, how do we find our islands that are psychologically safe? And this was very much focused on the workplace. And I was like, well, this is liberation thinking. So I'm a manager at a company and I've got 10 direct reports. I have complete control of how the relationship I build with them and how I support them, how I help them navigate systems, how I advocate for them, how I make them feel and then in turn learn, how well they do their job.

[55:03.9] Meaning if you can find this liberated psychological space, you do better work. So I think these concepts have been around. But I think honestly of all the things I teach, it is really hard for people to go to a place of liberation thinking.

[55:19.0] It's really hard for people to go to a place of possibility thinking. Yeah, we had certainly found that too. But it's, it is, it is interesting because even just how you were describing the psychological safety islands right now, like I was just thinking back to. I actually literally, it's so funny, I literally right before this podcast started, I sent a message to one of my former bosses at a previous company because a Facebook memory popped up for me and it Was like a little fun thing where just like a quick side note, like, he really loved, I don't know, he had like a weird picture, like, with a Viking hat with, like, the horns.

[55:54.7] And like, we just ran with it for, like, branding back in the day, like, you know, the early the mid-2000s, when company branding departments weren't super strict about what you did. So we did all this, like, marketing material for it. And then we had as a, like, gag joke for, I think, his birthday or something.

[56:10.5] Like, we all printed out, like, head things of it. So everyone, like, gathered together and we all had like, his head on a stick. But anyway, so I just sent a message and I was like, checking in and I was just thinking about that because, like, I've had experience. I've had good and bad experiences, but I've had experiences that I think speak to what you were just saying around, like, that psychological safety island where I remember thinking, like, oh, this, like, department or the company or the team is like, not like, I don't know.

[56:35.9] I don't know about this, but like, in my little. My tiny little, like, team island, like, I feel really good and really safe and like, the values align and like, I feel like I'm doing good work, but then, like, if I swim over to this island, it's really different. And I don't know about that. And I think that's so important to, like, remember that we, like, Because I think a lot of this time, like, a lot of the time when we talk about these big concepts like liberation, possibilities and all this stuff, part of.

[57:01.8] Of what I think might deter people who are sort of maybe like just casually engaging to a point is that it feels too big. It feels like it's too much. And so I. I love what you were saying because I think that it's like a reminder that we can actually get to some of these concepts at a very small level.

[57:20.8] Or, like, and I don't want to say small level, but like, at a very intimate or, like, localized level. And it doesn't have to be so transformative right away necessarily, but that actually could be transformative long term because, you know, this was at, least 10 years ago, if not longer, that I was on this team with this person, but I'm still connected in a way.

[57:41.0] And I have, like, this positive relationship because of the experiences that I had back when I was, you know, coming up in my career. So just. I love that. I love that idea. Yeah, that's all I wanted to say. Well, if we. If we all did the hard work of trying to create these spaces in all of our spheres.

[58:01.6] That's what creates the ripple. Right. Of change. And so. And that's always been true. Right. And it's hard work, I think. So often we point our fingers. We point our fingers at the CEO, we point our fingers at the president.

[58:16.9] We're constantly doing that. And. But we do have control in our immediate space. And I'm not saying this is easy. Gosh, if this work were easy, we would see equity and inclusion. Right. So it's really hard work. But we have control in these spaces. And so that's our.

[58:32.3] Often through my business, I'm working with leadership teams around that. Like, what. What do you have control of? And what can you create? And back to this question around, like, dei, do we use it or not? Like, honestly, like, what I teach is understanding the essence of these words.

[58:49.5] If you understand what D and E and I truly mean, your context is going to dictate what words you're going to use. Because if your context means you won't get any grants for. Or your business, your nonprofit. Go out. Go out of business. Fine. Use a different word.

[59:07.0] I don't care. I, however, will not be using different words because to me, it's just about teaching what it really is. And honestly, when I'm in a room of people who are all rumbly about what this is and I break it down, it just makes sense of what it is. Right. And it's because people, most people want to.

[59:22.4] To see others succeed. Yeah. It's like, It's. It's like, how feminism is a dirty word for people. And it's like, well, if you actually understood what it meant, it's not power over. It's power with. Like, you would be maybe a little more power with.

[59:40.3] To accept. That's powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that. And that's. I mean, that's. But I will never shame anybody for switching the language because everybody's context is so unique. We live in such a complicated time. Yeah. And so people need to decide what they need to do for their context in terms of the work.

[59:59.6] But I want to say, too, there are a lot of companies that heals in. We're doing this work, but we don't hear about these organizations. Right. Yeah. Because they don't want to say anything. That's the problem with our news and our news cycle. Right. It sort of is like there's so much static. And so.

[60:17.8] And yes, things are shit. I mean, things are Horrible for so many people. Some them of people are afraid. And we're talking life threatening situations for I 100% understand that. And we have to know that there are a lot of people doing good work, helping people.

[60:38.0] It's still there. It's not disappearing. This work is not disappearing. This work is not old. It's going to still be there. And I guess the other thing I would add to that too is which has always helped me and I'm sure I've talked about this before but I, one of another colleague of mine, Dr.

[60:54.9] Carmen Foster Child, of the civil rights movement, lives in Virginia, Historian and all things sort of race related. Amazing, amazing woman. But she often, she calls it, I'm stealing this from you Carmen. The time space continuum. She's like, we have to remember the time space continuum.

[61:11.1] And of course we're like what is that Carmen? Right. And the whole thing, and this isn't a new concept but it's important to remember is if you think about, about the entirety of our time right on this planet, what's happening today is a blip. Right.

[61:26.5] And so I've seen her go to a whiteboard and just write all of this stuff that has happened, you know, going back to the beginning of our country, but it's even longer for other countries. Right. And so that arc towards justice is moving. But yeah, it has a dip sometimes and it goes back up and has a dip and it goes back up and so.

[61:45.1] So I'm not saying it's easy now, I'm not saying that at all. But we have to understand the trajectory of this work. And whenever I see her do this or talk about this, it helps me understand that, okay, my place is to keep that arc movement. And if I'm keeping that arc movement in my islands of psychological safety, I'm still moving that arc.

[62:04.2] And eventually it's going to tick back up again just like it said a couple years ago. It's going to go up and down as we go. And so, so this blip in time and that also leads to liberation which understanding that what we live in today is 500 years in the making and so it's going to take hundreds of years to undo.

[62:24.0] So what can I do right now in my power to create this, these inclusive, equitable spaces and know that I'm going to then pass the baton to somebody else because I have received the baton from many powerful people who have always been doing this, this work and there will always be people Doing this work.

[62:40.3] Oh, you are such a beacon of light and hope, and I love it. And I know that we are. So we have a little bit of time left, so I want to just ask you one more question, which is because, you know, Felicia and I are doing a lot of thinking about the future of work. So I want to. I want you to think about what it looks like 10 years from now. What. God. What, what.

[62:59.1] If you could imagine it, what do you, what do you see in your crystal ball? I see us with a better handle on all this AI nonsense right now.

[63:18.1] I mean, that's, that is the future. And I think what's happening is sort of the, you know, the science, the, the, the. The. I was going to say like the happy endorphins from like these discoveries. It's just a flying out of control. But we haven't had the conversation. What does mean. To mean as people, and all that stuff. Right?

[63:37.1] And so I feel like we're going to get more of a balance on it. I'm not afraid of AI. I am afraid of us not having the conversation intentionally about what it is going to do, and what that means for humans, for workers, all that stuff.

[63:53.0] And so I am definitely being optimistic that we are able to get to better conversations on this. But I also think, I hope and think that in 10 years there's a lot more breakthroughs too. Whether it be around medicine, education, all that kind of stuff.

[64:11.3] And so I think, I don't know, it is going to look different, it's going to look futuristic. But we have, at some point, hopefully the next 10 years, we start talking about the humanity of it all. And so I'm going to be optimistic about that. I think DEI work is still going to be present.

[64:27.7] Maybe it's called something else. But, it's the idea of, you know, how do we create spaces where all humans thrive and robots. And robots. Robots don't take over like a movie.

[64:45.0] Not if we treat this for robots. Anyway. Yeah, I don't know. That's a. It's. We'll see. See, right? What is. What is consciousness? Wow. I know. I'm so sorry. I really feel like this was, I've let us down some wild faces, so I apologize. I really do.

[65:04.5] Chris, you're. Yeah. What just happened? I don't know. I don't know. I read some headlines right before we got on this, and that was my bad. This is a good lesson for me to meditate prior to conversation. So next time I do a podcast, I should send you some headlines. Yeah. Oh, my God.

[65:19.9] That'd actually be very fun. Let's do it. And I'm wondering if now that. Now that we know that you're thinking a lot about AI and the its ethical use and how it plays with humans, maybe we can have you back on and maybe just have more conversation around. Like what we can do to help further that conversation.

[65:35.9] Little in little bits and pieces. Sure. I'll be honest. I don't know. That's okay. No, that's okay. None of us now, no one knows that if we have intentional conversations as humans, we can figure it out. That's what I'm. This is intentional conversation. This is what we're going to call intentional conversations about. Love it. Human.

[65:54.8] It's always a delight and a pleasure, Chris. If, people want to learn more about true change you, where can they find you? Send me an email. How's that, Chris? TrueChange Associates.com. amazing.

[66:10.8] All spelled as it should. And we'll put it in the show notes. Lovely. I have a very, very, very, very, very old website that never updated, so please don't go there. And, I am on not on social media a lot, which is. People are like, what? That's crazy.

[66:27.9] Like, probably for the best and very healthy. I, am fully on social media. That's not going to change anytime soon. But I think you are doing the right way. So thank you so much, Chris. This was wonderful. All right, well, thank you so much for sticking with this conversation with us. We did it.

[66:48.2] We hope you enjoyed listening to our interview with Chris as much as we enjoyed the conversation. Yes, yes, yes. Thank you so much for listening. And please don't forget to rate, share and subscribe. It makes a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and by extension, this work. Visit us on YouTube, Instagram and LinkedIn and sign up for our newsletter at inclusiongeeks.com forward/newsletter to stay up to date on all things inclusion geeks.

[67:12.2] Stay geeky, friends. Bye.