Social Work in the Time of ICE, Crisis, and Cruelty with Gisselle Pardo

0:00:00 - Rachel Murray Hey, this is Rachel here, just a heads up before we dive in. Felicia and I talk about some of the heartbreaking events happening in the world right now, including references to the atrocities in Gaza. We know this can feel really heavy, so please take care of yourself and skip ahead to the timestamp listed in the show notes below if you need to.

0:00:28 - Felicia Jadczak Hi, and welcome to the She Geeks Out podcast, where we kick out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work, making the world a better and brighter place. I'm Felicia.

0:00:37 - Rachel Murray And I'm Rachel, and today we are joined by the lovely and delightful Giselle Pardo, a dedicated social worker and advocate currently leading critical efforts in response to ice rates impacting communities in New York City. Her work focuses on supporting vulnerable populations, advancing equity and addressing the real-world impacts of systemic harm. We dive into the importance of social work, especially now, how and why we as a society devalue it and what we can all do to support each other during these incredibly difficult times. We cannot wait to have you listen to it, but, of course, let's get into it.

We're getting into it. We got things, Felicia. What is today's?

0:01:17 - Felicia Jadczak date. What is even time? Monday, july 28th, it is 3.04 pm.

0:01:24 - Rachel Murray And we've just looked at the news.

0:01:27 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, I mean, I think this conversation is so timely, just given everything that's happening, and today, what we were just talking about before we hit record on this little intro of ours is just there's so much to talk about in terms of what's going on in the world. But I think a particular importance to highlight is, I was just telling you, it seems like there's been a really dramatic and real, perhaps, shift and like tide change in terms of how, collectively, we're talking about Gaza and Palestine and the genocide that's happening there with Israel, and I don't know, I mean, and the genocide that's happening there with Israel, and I don't know, I mean. I have some ideas and thoughts as to why this shift seems to have happened, but it's been a really interesting thing to witness, especially online and social media, because, you know, this is nothing new, but it does seem like the conversation is changing. Have you noticed the shift at all?

0:02:21 - Rachel Murray Well, yeah, I mean literally. The headline is, I mean, straight up, like shocking Trump saying that there's real starvation in Gaza.

0:02:30 - Felicia Jadczak Like you know, even a broken clock can hit twice a day.

0:02:33 - Rachel Murray But I am curious as to I mean, I think the pictures were shocking, you know, and it is. It is, frankly, a little comforting to know that there are still visuals that will impact people in this time when I think there's just so much like a lack of empathy or a lack of belief that either they're real or a lack of empathy in that, well, it's not happening to me. So I'm just going to worry about myself. So I'm just curious as to why you think some of these things are happening now.

0:03:04 - Felicia Jadczak So I'm just curious as to why you think some of these things are happening now. Yeah, well, I mean just to quickly double click on what you just said before I give some of my ideas and thoughts. I do think that I agree with you, because I think that there is definitely been a desensitization Can't say that word, that's a tough one, it's a biggie. I know it's a tough one, it's the toughest life that we're leading, but you know what I mean. I do think that, collectively, we have been desensitized to seeing images of violence come across our feed. So I think that, to your point, it is in some ways, yes, comforting to know that we can still be shocked by what we see, even though that doesn't mean that that's a good thing necessarily. But on the other hand, these pictures, I don't think, are any less shocking than what we've been seeing, and not just in the last two years, but in the last you know however many years you want to look at where we've been able to see images of war from different places around the world, not just in Gaza. So I think that part of it is. So why? Why do I think this is happening? Why do I think this is happening? So I do think that part of it is that and this is not going to be, I think, a nice thing to say but I think that things have progressed too far and I think that now people who have not spoken up yet are seeing that it's too late for Palestinians in a lot of ways. So it's become safe to speak up, whereas before it wasn't as safe. And what do I mean by it's gone too far and it's safe. Well, even if we're able to, if Israel were to open up the blockades and allow all the aid that is possibly available and all the ships and all the food that's sitting there waiting in a lot of it is too late, because these people are now at the point where they cannot just eat food, they have to be reintegrated into bringing nutrition back into their bodies. And so, you know, we talk about like the final solution, like we're at that point now, and so, even if this afternoon everything changes, we'll still see mass death happening, and I do think that there are a lot of people who, now that we're at this tipping point, seeing this happen, are like, oh, okay, now the tide has shifted, and so, like, with this blood on the hands, I will speak up now when it doesn't really make a difference, and I think we're seeing a lot of that come out, where we're seeing influencers and regular people and all sorts of people like Jenna Kutcher I'm not that familiar with her, but she posted a whole thing online about, like you know why I didn't speak up until now, and it was so wimpy, in all honesty, like you know, oh, I was afraid of losing, you know, business or whatever.

And I mean you and I had made a very early decision in October, two years ago, when the initial attack happened, october 7th, and we talked about it at length and we decided that we had to say something.

And I mean, I remember feeling obligated and that's not the right word compelled to speak up, because it's not that anything dramatically changed, but our eyes were really sort of, you know, open to a lot of what was happening.

And you know we did get pushback from people, we got backlash and I had a lot of people reaching out to me privately who were really unhappy with what I was saying, both on behalf of the company and personally, and arguing with me and telling me I was wrong to say what I was saying. And I think that you know that was two years ago and there were so many more people out there who have been more vocal and more, you know, have had more to lose and have lost more than we have. But I think now it's become safer, now that people are really seeing this shift where they're like oh, I got to scramble to sort of like get it in under the wire so that when we have this reckoning, which is happening, I will be seen to have been on the right side of history. So that's kind of like my high level thought.

0:06:55 - Rachel Murray So dark, so dark it is dark. Yeah, it's interesting because I would say I think it was last week even there was an op-ed in the New York Times that was like, oh, it just really was so uncool. It was like it's not a genocide, don't call what's happening in Palestine a genocide. And I clicked it to see and it was like, well, not enough people have been killed yet If Israel really wanted to kill everyone, they would have just bombed it, like done more, I guess, and I'm just like I mean, they've done plenty personally. What kind of a sick thought is that? It's like, oh well, it's not a. And it really does make me think about the media's role in all of this.

0:07:41 - Felicia Jadczak Absolutely so complicit?

0:07:44 - Rachel Murray Yeah, and it really hasn't been. And I just want to give props out to the Guardian, who has been steadfast in their commitment to reporting as much as they can about this and doing some really beautiful work, and I think they have been way ahead of the curve, well beyond most of the standard American media on it. And I do remember having conversations with people. Look, I'm half Jewish and I have certainly had conversations with many people who have, who know, people who are in Israel. I haven't had a conversation with them, I will say, in the past year or so about this topic In a very similar way to like when I have had the conversations, in a very similar way to like when I have had the conversations.

There has been a real difficulty in agreeing on truth and facts. And it does remind me of, like, the MAGA conversations, the truth and facts and you know just this denial. I mean, I remember asking someone who we had this conversation about, who was so upset about this portrayal of Israel as committing genocide or being the aggressors and not just the defenders, right, and you know I said well, I remember when Amnesty International came out, you know, and Ireland came out and I asked what incentive. Do they have to say that? And the fallback answer was always well, they're just anti-Semitic period, which, as we know, is problematic.

0:09:11 - Felicia Jadczak It's become a dog whistle.

0:09:12 - Rachel Murray Yes and it's yeah for many reasons. It's problematic.

0:09:16 - Felicia Jadczak On many different levels indeed. Yeah, yeah.

0:09:19 - Rachel Murray So it is interesting to see because for me, seeing the pictures come out now interesting to see because for me, seeing the pictures come out now and as someone who is probably more skeptical of what is happening in the media than I have ever been, it's my own naivete. I do question the timing around this happening and I do feel like with Epstein there is a connection as far as this distraction. Is it being used as that? I don't know, but it does feel suspicious to me.

0:09:49 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, but it's hard because like, and I agree with you to a certain extent and I'm like, but we've been seeing horrifying pictures all along right.

0:09:56 - Rachel Murray But well, to be clear, felicia, you have right, I think if you, because I do have consistently looked at, I go on CNN almost daily, I go on the Guardian, I go on the New York Times, I go on them and they are not front page news, not until literally this past week.

0:10:12 - Felicia Jadczak Well, and I think, yeah, but that, I think, speaks to your point around how the media has been treating this that's right.

Years ago it was inescapable all over my social media because people who lived in Gaza and Palestine had technology and phones and were posting and sharing their stories and posting videos and it was draining. And I don't say that to say like, oh poor me, but it was in your face if you looked for it. And I'm just thinking of and not to like go down a gory, you know, like war, porn kind of thing, but like I just remember seeing images of families holding their children in plastic bags.

0:10:58 - Rachel Murray So it's like you know, if that's not a picture, that's going to get you then, like you know, it's to the point, though, but, felicia, it's to the point where you were seeing that the algorithm was feeding you. They were not feeding everyone else, and so you you even more than myself and many others right, you have tailored your algorithm to see this.

0:11:21 - Felicia Jadczak No, that's true, you're right, yeah, and then I think that's why it's, that's partially why it's been so frustrating for again, not just me personally, but folks who are in this space of being know and to that point of like, why now, with the media shifts, like you know, we'll probably never know for sure, but I do, I just go back to like that idea of it's too late in a lot of ways. So now it's become safe for the establishments to finally start to you know, and that's possible.

0:12:07 - Rachel Murray Start to you know, talk about it, and that's possible. I will say the other thing could be the credible sources of where these images and videos are coming from, right. So this is why the media is so important because you have, if you have, journalists that are verifying, that are taking the images and the videos and verifying that these are real, right, because there's such a skepticism.

0:12:28 - Felicia Jadczak But it goes back to your point of like what is truth and what is facts and like, again, you know, like I mean you and I are on the same page, so I know like we're not arguing about this right now. What's happening right now, you know it's obviously there's a lot of emotion and there's a lot of stuff around this, but, like there are, there have been journalists all along and that's I don't kill Red Cross volunteers, you don't kill EMTs and healthcare workers, you don't kill journalists and they're like sorry, and so I think that's why it's been again. Maybe it's just it's been enough and enough and enough. That's built to a tipping point. But there have been people all along who have been like, okay, sure Can we trust a random TikTok video of someone asking for help? Maybe, maybe not. You know I veer towards year and then I can't remember, but I think that either one of those documentary filmmakers either got killed or was beat up or whatever was attacked, and it's like there are verified sources that have been since day one talking about this. I mean, even if you look at groups like World Central Kitchen, which has been there, and they're saying we're running out of food, we can't feed people, like doctors, who've been saying you know, you're bombing the hospital, so it's. It's just.

I think that it is really interesting to see again this shift happening in real time, and I again, I think it goes back to what I want to say earlier with that idea of, like you know, have we been overwhelmed and like desensitized to images that are so horrible? The other element which is real, that we need to address is that AI generated images are fully part of this discussion and this reality, and there are AI images that are floating out there that are not real, that are showing horrible things, and I don't know about you, rachel, but like I'm finding it harder and harder to distinguish between what is real and what is AI generated, because they're getting better at it and so it's still, I think, relatively okay to understand. You're like, oh, this image doesn't quite look right. Or like Rachel Maddow is not actually wading through the waters of Texas, it's tricky.

0:15:06 - Rachel Murray But this is exactly why having media institutions be like this is why some of these systems are important Like this is exactly why, Because, as much as we all want everything to be fractured, that's great, but if we don't have trusted institutions, if we can't trust in them, then we don't know what's true and that is such a huge loss. And it is in large part the fault of the actual media companies for creating an environment that has us question reality. You know, honestly, like Fox is like an easy target, but like the other ones I mean let's talk about the New York- Times Like they're all culpable.

0:15:58 - Felicia Jadczak They all have issues and I agree with you and I think, and when we look at again, you and I are no fans, but we look at who is in charge in the United States and just what was it? Yesterday, a few days ago, trump tweeted out or whatever truth, socialed out a doctored. Did you see this doctored image of Obama?

0:16:18 - Rachel Murray They have to stop calling it truth, by the way, and they need to start calling him lied.

0:16:22 - Felicia Jadczak Social. Yeah, you know, in his lie, social like he. He put this picture up where it was, like him and vance and oh, I can't even I, just I cannot.

0:16:33 - Rachel Murray This is I want to. I feel like I need to put like a warning on, I know, the trigger warning seriously.

0:16:38 - Felicia Jadczak But what is? And this is where, like, you, just have to laugh sometimes because it's so like ridiculous this world that we live in. But what did make me laugh actually was in this dumb picture that he put out there, which is obviously fake. It's not real, of course, but again, there are people out there who I'm sure, thought it was real. He used for the headshot of Vance in the car, that really terrible photo of Vance that has been doctored, where he looks like a balloon man kind of. Have you seen this picture? Yeah?

0:17:06 - Rachel Murray I just can't. It's Honestly, I just cannot like the, the, the stuff that is coming out. You know, it's just, it's, it is again it. I just feel like it is all just like the final death throes of it. Just the institutions that are Gonna have to come down not to get all woo but like we're here, let's get woo. We are here, we are, you know, we are here, we are in it, and I just feel like it is not sustainable. The experiences that we are having collectively are. There is such a shift and I'm actually really excited to have the future conversations that we are going to have with some of our other upcoming guests, because it is all breaking. It is all breaking and we can all feel it and it's causing massive stress and anxiety and, you know, I just truly hope that we can all come out of this better.

0:18:08 - Felicia Jadczak On the other side, I hope we can come out at all. But yeah, I mean, it comes down to critical thinking and holding space for all of it and having boundaries and also not shying away from it either, because it's not something to ignore. You know it's what is the messaging. Do we do we believe it? Do we agree with it? There's a person I follow online, matt Bernstein. I think his Instagram handle or his handle is MattXIV, which is a great resource, highly recommend following if you don't already.

But he had put a post up recently which was like sort of the arguments of a Zionist in four chapters and it just I won't go through it all, but it outlines how a message shifts over time, in this case with regards to Palestine again and killing children, and you see just how, like the way we talk about things and the words that we use and the framing that we use, it has real impact on how we emotionally handle things, how we think about it, how we respond, how we react and it you know. He ends his post with a quote from George Orwell, which is the party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command, and that's kind of where we're at right now. It's not even kind. Of that's where we're at right now.

0:19:26 - Rachel Murray Yeah, and it's yeah, and it's going to be interesting to see how it all plays out when you have people that are waking up from this fever dream of reality that is like so far from many other people's reality, and my genuine hope is that we all can realize what the true, real enemy is, which is deception, which is abuse of power, which is dehumanization, lack of respect and kindness and just being cruel. You know, the cruelty is the thing that I continue to come back to as something that I just cannot. It just breaks my heart. Honestly, it just breaks my heart. I mean, you could take any of it.

There's so much Whether it's what we're going to be talking about soon with Giselle and ICE, you know. And then, on a more basic and longer term view of just the devaluation of the work that she does, the social work, right, like that, valuing of human life yeah, we don't do it, you know. As opposed to all the acute stuff that is happening, yeah, this is so dark, I'm so sad, I'm like, can we, should we even leave this in?

0:20:57 - Felicia Jadczak I think it's important because it is sad, but sometimes and a lot of times actually, not even just sometimes this is the work is holding. You know, like you know, I talk a lot about holding space and I think that's why it can be so hard, because you're not always holding space, and I think that's why it can be so hard, because you're not always holding space for joy or laughter or fun. It is holding space for the hard stuff, and we're living through what in our lifetimes I can safely, I think, say is the hardest point we've ever had to live through, and a lot of people are not living through this moment. So I say, leave it in, because it's important to acknowledge it and you know, I think it's a, it is certainly. This is not the end all be all of this conversation. It is a longer conversation that's going to continue to happen between us, between everyone else.

And you know, the only thing I just wanted to say really quickly, before we shift into hearing from Giselle about stuff that's going a little bit closer to home, is there are a lot of people who are speaking up now, who are realizing, who are understanding or changing their minds or realizing that maybe what they thought was true is not true at all or fully true.

And I think what we have to remember in the future is not that these people get a pass because they're finally awake to what's going on, but that we maintain a sense of accountability and we still welcome them in, because if we reject people who are fully coming to it now, that's not going to get us to where we need to be, and that is a really, really difficult balance to hold.

And you know it's another thing we have to hold space for, too is that that can be so upset and horrified and angry that only now are people using their voice or speaking up or understanding, and we have to, at the same time, welcome them in because, like you, you and I talk about this with regards to the training that we do, right, you know, we say like, and I say all the time I'm like, I don't necessarily need to change your mind, but I want you to listen to me, and that's people are at different points in their learning journey, and so this is like a mass. It's not even like a learning journey, it's just like an awareness journey. But if it's now that they're coming aware, okay, great. I'd rather it be today than tomorrow, but at the same time, that doesn't negate accountability for how we came to this moment. Yeah, well, said Longer conversation for another time.

0:23:21 - Rachel Murray I'm sure we'll have it, I'm sure we'll have it.

0:23:26 - Felicia Jadczak Well, giselle, we got to shift gears. Let's bring it back to a little bit closer to home at least. I mean closer to me, not necessarily closer to you.

0:23:35 - Rachel Murray New York was always in my heart I know, yeah, and yeah, we're excited to have Giselle. And, to all of you who are listening, we have timestamped this. So if you forwarded, great, we totally get it, and if not, thank you for listening.

0:23:50 - Felicia Jadczak If you need to take a quick break before you dive into more not so necessarily fun stuff, take a break, pause. But then Giselle is a great conversation. We're so excited to have her and to have had this chance to chat with her about her work and what she's been doing. So I guess, without further ado, welcome to the show, giselle. Yay.

0:24:08 - Rachel Murray Our guest today is the lovely and talented Giselle Pardo. Hello and welcome, giselle. We are so excited to have you here, thank you, thanks for inviting me, of course. Well, we are so ready to get into it, but first, what we love to do is get that origin story going. So take us back to the beginning. What drew you to this work? Was there a moment, an experience, a person that planted that magical seed? Tell us everything. Oh, how much time do you have?

0:24:35 - Gisselle Pardo No, we have one hour Go.

I think when I was thinking that I mean, that's a great question and I had to look back, I think for as long as I remember, I used to say I was going to be a doctor. I don't even remember when it started. I'd say I'm going to be a doctor, I'm going to be a doctor, and I know that the message came from my parents, from my family. It was this idea that I'm a daughter of immigrants and, like many immigrant children, you hear the story. We came to this country so that you could have a better future, you can have an education, you can have better opportunities. And those opportunities, according to my parents, only resulted in two professions either being a lawyer or a doctor. So that was the message you know that I was constantly receiving and I remember being in like college pre-med track and then rude awakening I failed like calculus and chemistry all in the same semester. I was crying on the steps of some building. I failed like calculus and chemistry all in the same semester was crying on the steps of some building.

I was like how do I pick myself up and figure this out? And like, whose dream was this and why did I want to be a doctor? I can't even stand the sight of blood and kind of trying to like unpack all of that to see, like at the essence of this, I think, was I was drawn to the idea of being a doctor, the idea of, like how do I help sustain healthier communities, healthier people, make impact in people's lives? But had to unpack what was my drive and what was my parents' drive. And then, through talking to people, I stumbled on some couple of people who were doing social work and I thought, okay, this sounds like it could be something of interest, but I don't think it really.

And I went on, I got my master's in social work but I don't think it really clicked for me, like this is where I belong, until probably like my first job post-grad and it was working in a hospital in New York City with HIV positive women and children, and that work was hard, it was humbling, it was devastating. Sometimes I often think like those families, would they have been better off if they had, like, this version of me that's much more seasoned because I was so green, because I am the social worker I am because of them, because they let me like be in their lives at moments of, like, the most profound grief, profound stigma, joy, resilience, all of that and I think there was moments and times, like bearing witness to people at the bedside of loved ones dying, that I thought this is like just so painful, yet somehow I think this is where I should be and belong, and like that to me is like in those families are who I credit with, like being the social worker that I am today.

0:27:22 - Felicia Jadczak So that's my story, I love that and, oh my gosh, so much to hold space for, and I can just feel all the emotion coming through the screen as you're talking about some of these experiences. So you know, so you hold both an LCSW and an MPH and both of those credentials take a lot of time, financial investment, obviously, deep care, as you've touched on already, but in general I think it's, you know, kind of across the board. We tend to see, and continue to see, social work, especially as a field that tends to get profoundly undervalued. So just curious what you think that disconnect says about our social priorities. And how do you reconcile that intense and deep emotional labor that you've touched on of doing this work with both, then, the financial and systemic realities of what the profession entails? And how should we be, or should we be, reframing that conversation around the value of this work?

0:28:20 - Gisselle Pardo Oh my God, that question, like there's so many things that like we could say.

0:28:24 - Rachel Murray And it's a big one.

0:28:26 - Gisselle Pardo Take whatever piece speaks to you. No, I think. I think it definitely says, in terms of priorities, this society continues to prioritize and I think, reward labor that results in profit versus labor that results in sustaining and uplifting people and communities. And I also think that social work kind of like teaching, nursing and other professions really has always been looked at like this idea of like care work You're like a caregiver, which is historically feminized and therefore undervalued, because we can have a whole podcast of why women right the pay gap here. So preach, yeah. I think there's that what society values, what it rewards. And I also feel like it's like we're not thinking long term and the long term gain and value of the kind of work that social workers do. So it's very like we're not turning a profit right now, but what we do can have impact on communities and economy and society in the long term. So when I was I was the co-executive director of an early childhood program here in New York and when we would talk to fund about like no, this is what people also need to hear is like what? What's the value, what's the return on investment? And there's oh, my God, I think I wrote it down somewhere there's an economist named Heckman and he came up. It's called the Heckman equation and he actually looked at from an economic point of view, like if we invest in quality child programs from birth to age five, what's the return of investment? And the number is something like 13% per year return on investment if you invest, like early in a child's life and a family's life, versus what we often do in this society which is like we try to undo, repair heal after damage is done, things have been done. Not to say that there isn't value in working with high school students and adults. Of course there is and it's a need. But wouldn't it be so much better if we started early? But kind of going back to that point, it's like we feel like we need to have people understand the economic impact this work can also have.

I struggle a lot with like how do we change that narrative? And like who needs to like how do we change it narrative? And like who needs to like how do we change it? You know we have a national organization of social workers. I don't think they're doing a good enough job to really help change that narrative or to advocate for us, because how do you sustain a workforce that's doing this really hard work and sometimes it's trying to figure out how do I even like make a living wage to do this work Any social work you know, myself included, I call it. We've got like multiple hustles going on at the same time. We have multiple jobs because it's the only way to sustain you, and so I think if we're going to change the narrative, it's going to require lots of not just social workers like we need the economist, we need the business owners, business individuals, we need people from all kinds of sectors to be changing the narrative.

I've also been thinking a lot about who tells the narrative and I think, rachel, you and I started a conversation about, like that, who gets to tell the story, who gets to get believed. And then one thing I did want to add is it's not just I think we're, it's not just about the we're undervalued. It's also a hard profession sometimes for individuals to get into and the individuals I think we need to be in this profession. So what do I mean is, like I'm also in academia and at a private institution in New York, it costs about $60,000 a year for someone to get their MSW and you need your MSW.

People forget that this work. You require a master's degree, you need a level of expertise. You need 900 hours of a supervised practicum before you're done with your so cost $60,000. In a private institution $60,000 a year, so $120,000, right. When you graduate, your starting salary may be $55,000, right. So who gets to go in? Who can afford to do this? Who can afford to go in here, study, do 900 hours of an internship and not have to also work? And in some ways, then we're also creating an inequity in who gets to have this degree. I can go on, so I'm going to pause.

0:32:50 - Rachel Murray Oh no, we're nodding our heads so aggressively over here because it is so on. So I'm going to pause. Oh no, it's like there's. We're like nodding our heads so aggressively over here because it is so true.

And I think about a friend of mine who she's a nurse anesthetist and she I knew her when she was working on all of her many degrees and we had a conversation once and she told me I just thought it was so interesting she said that it's a pretty male-dominated subsection of a subsector of the nursing field, nurse anesthetist because it is the highest paying field, you have the most men in it and it's like a I know it's like a chicken and egg thing too. I'm like you know like what? But you were, you hit the nail on the head with the fact that you know this is care work, which is why it's feminized and that is why. But also to have to pay so much is just just astounding. So I also just want to say thank you for doing this work, and I know a lot of people that are doing this really have to make compromises and sacrifices. And then you know, heaven forbid, you live in a city like you live in New York City right, so not the most affordable of towns in this country, absolutely not.

0:34:01 - Gisselle Pardo Yeah, I think something just prompted also that I also see a lot of students. So there's a lot of students drawn to the field and actually at the university where I work, we've seen an increase in enrollment so great, a lot of students drawn to the field. And actually at the university where I work, we've seen an increase in enrollment so great. Part of me feels really like inspired. Lots of people want to be social workers. But what I'm also finding is everybody entering the field is entering because they want to eventually have a private practice.

Now there is a mental health crisis and there's a need. I'm not minimizing that at all. We have a need, Everybody needs. I wish everybody could go to therapy because we all could use somebody to talk to. But I think students are also seeing that because that's where it's going to be lucrative and then we're losing this essence of what social work really is rooted in. It's like community level work, social justice advocacy.

Social justice advocacy I mean social workers are everywhere, from schools to hospitals to I have students doing internships at like assembly members offices, Like we are everywhere trying to do this and sometimes I just feel really actually sad to hear that this is the direction everybody wants to go to. I get it, it is much more lucrative. But then who also gets to afford to go to therapy in this country if you've got private insurance and there's such a gap in accessibility to mental health care? And so if you're going in the private practice route, you're kind of going in the opposite direction of what we're supposed to be doing, which is serving the communities that are marginalized and need us be doing which is serving the communities that are marginalized and need us. And so, yeah, I'm just seeing that and I get it at the same time, Like I'm not blaming students for wanting to go in that direction. It's like how do we change this?

0:35:43 - Rachel Murray You know, and so sorry. Yeah, it just made me think of something else too. And what's so funny not funny, haha, like funny depressing is that there is such an awareness of the mental health crisis in we'll just take this country right and by folks that are not providing the resources that are needed. Right, we're going to talk about all the gun violence and they're like, oh, it's not the guns, it's a mental health crisis. Well, okay, great, how are we making this available to everyone in a way that that makes sense? So you're, and you're totally. It is a mixed bag and it needs to be both, and I know a lot of people are probably doing both. They're like doing private practice to subsidize, and that kind of gets to the next question. I would love to know what you would want to share for those who are not doing this work. What is the lived experience of being a social worker?

0:36:34 - Gisselle Pardo Wow, I think I always like to tell students I wonder if I scare students off from the beginning. It's like this is it's messy and it's unpredictable and it's hard, but it's also like, incredibly, and it's frustrating and rewarding and beautiful all at the same time. So just all of those emotions are all packed together. I think you know a big part of what we do is bearing witness to people's pain, to their trauma, to their sadness. Important about what social work does that may differ from a mental health practice or another practice like psychology and psychiatry and again, there's a need in places for all of this is that social work. At the core of it is like we're looking at people in their environment. So, rather than saying like, okay, so you're experiencing depression, like what's wrong with you, or like, well, let's focus on the you and you figuring out how to cope as a social worker, you're also looking like what are the things happening in your environment and the systems around you that sustain this, that sometimes directly cause it right by injustice, by oppression, by racism, like what's happening around you that is sustaining this and also what can happen around you that can uplift you. Like let's look at like, so let's look outside of just the individual. And let's look at all of that and that's the, I think, the key lens that social work brings.

And, as I said earlier, I don't think people realize all the different places that social workers. Are it so like they're in schools helping kids every day to navigate that? They're that person in the hospital when your loved ones getting discharged that's trying to figure out like what do you need to get home safely? Because in my work at the university I also work on matching students to practicums, so I know that I have students working on like policy with nonprofits, grant writing. And something that I love and I want to see more of is here, at least in New York, I have many assembly members, local congress individuals that take social work interns to be in their office to do both policy work and be constituent facing. So they're the people that are greeting that constituent when they go in and be like I am pissed off that my Medicaid is being cut and they're trying to help navigate all of that. So we're doing such a wide variety of things every day. I feel like there's more, but let me pause there.

0:39:00 - Felicia Jadczak No, I think both Rachel and I can appreciate and get the vast realm of where people who are in this work might be popping up. And I actually love what you just mentioned around sort of that embedding of social work interns or folks in that kind of constituent-facing role, because, just as someone who's been calling the offices over the last several years, I rarely get in touch with a human being but I can just imagine all of the stuff that they have to just hear and listen to. So having tools already and having a way to be able to process and just deal with that is probably really helpful. It's funny because, as you were talking, I was thinking about my own therapist, who is someone who is a social worker, who went into private practice. She's a lot older, but I was thinking I think about it a lot in the sense of I've been seeing her for like eight or nine years. So we've gone through a lot together, including COVID and all this unrest and the presidencies and all the things that are going on.

And obviously the work that Rachel and I do is not social work but it's sort of, I would say, adjacent in a lot of ways, like we joke and say business therapy sometimes, and sometimes I get on our calls and I'm like, should I be like holding space for her? And obviously that's not the role, that's not how it's supposed to play out. But I always think about that. I'm like, how are you doing? Because I can only imagine it's just so much to hold in a lot of ways. But that kind of leads me to the next question, which may be a big one. We'll see how we get into it.

But I want to talk a little bit about the current landscape. And so, as you've mentioned a couple times, you're in New York and, as folks are probably aware, like we're having a lot of disruption happening right now and a lot of fear because we have ICE out there. They're targeting marginalized folks and they're going after people and kidnapping people. And so what are you seeing and experiencing related to this work in New York, specifically in response to ICE raids, and is that affecting the communities you serve? I imagine it must be, so I guess maybe I should reframe that how is it affecting the communities you're serving?

0:41:07 - Gisselle Pardo I'm really glad we got to this question because I feel like it's important and I actually gave a lot of thought. I'm just going to say this first, that there are a lot of organizations that are working with immigrant communities and I work with an organization one of my many jobs is working with an organization that works with immigrant communities and there's fear to even talk about your work, right To connect my organization with this, because there's been some intentional targeting of nonprofits who do this work to, I think, to silence us and to defund us. So I had to think carefully but I wanted to make sure I had. So I appreciate having space to talk about it because I do think it's important to talk about.

You know, I think there has been this kind of very intentional, systematic dehumanizing of immigrants. This isn't new, it's been happening, but it just like ramped up to 100. I feel to make the immigrant communities kind of like the enemy or the bad guy. Like you should be afraid of immigrant communities. They're the cause of all these problems and to me that's a distraction from everything else going on right. The other, the bill that just passed that's actually going to dismantle all these safety nets for lots of people for everyone, of all walks of life across the United States. It's going to dismantle that. But, man, is it going to fund ICE? Isn't it going to, you know, give you a lot more money to go and harm communities? So I just was like this has been going on in this narrative of dehumanizing immigrants and I think what we're seeing here is that narrative and that intentional dehumanizing has been sowing fear and it's working. It's fear, it's confusion. Communities and families are afraid. Even when they have been doing everything right and following everything they were supposed to do. They're unsure of what they can do. Can I send my kids to school? Can I go to the doctor, even though I'm pregnant and need prenatal care? But maybe I shouldn't. Is it safe? And that is really scary that people are unsure like where's a safe place to go to anymore? We are seeing families getting so. Neighbors are disappearing, families are being separated and we have mothers being separated from small children and, as I'm sure you've seen in the news what's happening, particularly in immigration court, where ICE is waiting both in the waiting room, in the hallways and I think you're asking people who were doing everything right. I came here, I filed an asylum application, I paid all your fees. I follow the laws. You told me to check in, I check in. I show up to court when you tell me to show up to court, I do all you tell me to do, and then this is what's going to happen.

And so we are seeing all of that and I think it can make both communities and the people doing this work feel hopeless. But what I'm also seeing is a lot of like solidarity, community advocacy. So today I mentioned you know it's July 17th, they're in honor of Congressman John Lewis there's across the nation all of this happening, called these movements, called Good Trouble, and so today there's a rally happening here in New York City and specifically it will go to Federal Plaza, where Immigration Court is, and really have this moment of silence. We'll bring flowers to just signify everybody who has gone, missing and disappearing. So it's really about like this peaceful moment but to say like we can't forget. You know what's happening, and that this is happening everywhere, to your neighbors, to people who are working in your children's school, who are keeping the city running.

I think we're also seeing communities who are here like individuals, who've been here for decades under a legal protection, like TPS right. So they've been here for decades, contributing to society, working, paying taxes, raising their families, and that's been revoked, like overnight, after you've, like your lifetime has been here right Like 20, 30 years. I don't think people realize how much the immigrant community contributes. I'll say, in New York City, like we would not run without it, right With like just the vibrancy of the city and the amount of like tax dollars that even individuals without documentation pay. I think it's like again I wrote it down, but also this is a mess. It's like, oh my God, what was it? I think it's like 30, oh, 30, yeah, like $3 billion or might be higher, in like local, state and federal taxes.

0:45:40 - Rachel Murray Like think of how many Trump parades there could be with that kind of money.

0:45:44 - Gisselle Pardo I know, think about all that that you can do. Like they're paying taxes for things that you and they can't benefit, like nobody can benefit from unemployment, none of this, all of that to contribute. So I am, I hold on to moments of hope where I see solidarity, where I see movement, where I see like things that are happening today. And you know, when I reached out to colleagues to say who can come today, who can, you know, help raise awareness. I also think about people who can use their privilege, because I think I am a brown woman walking, daughter of immigrants walking around, but I am a US citizen and I have a lot of other places where I can use that privilege to be like I can show up for those who can't. I've been talking to people who are interested in volunteering and helping some of the families I work with on the day they have to go to immigration court and just be a support, just be like we're here in support of you, just be a support, just be like we're here in support of you. And I had somebody I was speaking to who said I'm going to use my privilege as a white man to show up and just be, just be presence, and I think I'd like to see more of that.

No, I just I often want to say to people, I think, can you imagine what it would take if you thought, like, what would it take for you to decide I am going to walk out of my house because of everything happening.

Walk out of my house, maybe with what's on my back or in a backpack, and leave my country knowing I may never return and that decision is the only logical decision for your safety and everyone else's safety. Like, I think you, just if people could just imagine that people aren't doing this or coming here for other reasons than that. I there's a picture and like of my parents that it's like a black and white picture the day they left Ecuador 1960s on the tarmac, and it's like my grandmother, my parents and my older brother, who was a baby at the time, and they all look like there's just like fear all kinds. There's nobody smiling stark, like we are petrified. And I think about that picture because I think, god, I wonder if they knew they would never return, so like they never have ended up going to you know, return to Ecuador.

Like everything my parents were in their 20s at the time, like everything they gave up, and that picture to me says so much, speaks like a million words, more than my parents have ever been able to tell me about why they left. And I think that picture like, has shaped my like. That moment has shaped my life even like before I was born. So I think about all the families I work with and what they're trying to do to shape the life of their children. I just wish, like people could, I don't know, connect to that part of their humanity.

Here in New York, I feel fortunate that I think there are enough people who are connecting to that and trying to hold their elected officials accountable. I mean elected officials like they work for us, like technically we're their bosses. They should be helping and stepping up. And I think here there's a lot of organizations moving and we do have some elected officials, like locally, who I think are hearing things. New York City, at least New York City, has moved in the direction of providing more funding for immigrant services. So I think I'm also grateful to be living here, but I know that this is larger than what you know, larger than what I'm seeing in New York, and I can again have another hour full of talking about this issue, because it's very close to my heart right now.

0:49:12 - Rachel Murray I mean it is just. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective and for doing all of the work that you do and putting yourself out there. It is both unimaginable. And here we are and as someone who is, you know, I'm in Southern California and so in California has certainly been impacted quite a lot. It's been in the news a lot. There's actually a farm worker strike that's happening right now for three days here, not sanctioned by a union, but just the farm raids that are happening here.

It's like people do forget and I'm so glad, giselle, that you brought up that important point about your parents coming here. I think that I don't know if there is this perception that by some that think that people are coming here because they're treating it like this is a vacation, that they're just like excited to come here, it's going to be delightful and they're going to get like the spa treatment and like all the things. Like no people are leaving their home, like everything they know, they are risking so much to go to a place where they don't know anyone maybe or they and they don't know the language necessarily, and they don't know the culture, and they and then now like and they're not accepted, you know, by. They don't know what trouble that will happen for them. They are risking so much. And it's funny because I was thinking how there is a slight parallel to this right Of like. I think about the trans community and people that are transitioning and how challenging, how hard that is.

Right, like, again, like this is something that is like people aren't like ooh, I think I want to be like a woman today, because you know, women are treated so well in America. Like, like who, as an example, like you know, these are hard, hard choices, let alone all the garbage that people outside are making it hard for them anyway. Like even harder. Like these are so difficult and it's so true. It's like, how do we tap into that humanity and that empathy and like understand this is not like, oh, this is something I really want to do because it's gonna be like amazing, like that's not it. So thank you so much for sharing all of that, and I just want to follow up with a question too. Is like, as a social worker in particular, there's so much that is happening right now. There's the ice raises, but there's just the. We talked a little bit about the mental health crisis, right, like, how do you believe social workers are uniquely positioned to play a role in the shaping of policy for this country this country.

0:51:59 - Gisselle Pardo So I think you know maybe a little bit of what like earlier when I was saying, like what one of the core focuses is really thinking about the person and environment. So I think that social workers are in a position to really help organizations, help communities I'd love to say society and we should have. I told you I think I need a podcast to get my word out there.

0:52:16 - Rachel Murray This might be it.

0:52:17 - Felicia Jadczak This might be the beginning.

0:52:18 - Gisselle Pardo This might be the beginning To really understand, like, how do you understand all the context around it, right, all the systems that are impacting individuals? I think there is opportunity to uplift the voices of those communities. I don't think this happens often enough, but sometimes social workers are able to go and testify, certainly here locally. I know lots of different organizations have done it, both for LGBTQ rights, for disabilities rights, especially around education, immigration Like, ok, maybe the families I work with can't come in, but I can speak for them and tell their stories. So that's one piece. I think we need more social workers embedded in policy work. So you know, I am excited that social work interns are in places like council members or assembly members' offices. So I think we have a knowledge, a lens of looking at the work. We can uplift those voices. But I also want to say that there's a lot that's flawed within, like I don't. Like I am deeply passionate about the work that I do, but there's a lot of flaws within.

I also think, with all the fear that came with this new administration, there were a lot of organizations that were quick to do like, all right, we're going to concede and just shift and not uphold the values we said we were going to uphold but to like shift and say, ok, we're afraid, so we're going to give you what you want, or we're going to change language, or we're going to and I know both of you know this well in the work that you're doing, right, absolutely going to. And I know both of you know this well in the work that you're doing, right, absolutely, we don't talk about DEI anymore, let's change this language, let's do all of that. And it's been very frustrating to feel that, because I do think we were very well positioned to make changes because we are at the front line, we're seeing all of this, we understand it, but then the institutions we often work for are not doing that. And I think we were also having once a conversation about that concept of institutional betrayal. It's a psychologist, dr, I think it's Jennifer Fried, who coined the term about these institutions that we rely on and depend on our police, our hospitals, our schools, all of that and when they actually cause us harm.

And you know, in this moment I've been feeling that way about a lot of places that are supposed to be institutions I rely on, the communities I sort of rely on, and that are not stepping up to really do what they're supposed to do and protect people, and I think we could be doing better to help. I don't know change this moment, so it doesn't. I don't know if it fully answers your question, but I think I needed to make sure. I also said here's a lot of flaws within the social service sector as well.

0:55:06 - Felicia Jadczak No, I think that's great because it really speaks to, I think, the dilemma which is not limited to just social work, it's everywhere which is that we have individuals working within oftentimes deeply flawed systems and institutions that are either upholding those flaws, perpetuating them or, in some cases, trying to fix or fight back, and then, as individuals we're also, we encompass a lot of that within ourselves too. So it is not an easy. It's not an easy time to be living this life in any respect. And yes, you know, even in the DEI space, like Rachel and I wrestle with this around language and how do we do the work but shift it, or do we or do we not? And what's going to happen. And you know the joke I keep saying, which is probably a bit morbid, but I'm like, yeah, you know, like business is not doing great and maybe by the end of the year we'll be in jail, so like I don't know, but it's the reality, right? Because it's dangerous in some senses to be pushing back against a regime like the one that we're living under right now.

And as you were talking, giselle, I was really thinking a lot about where I live, because I am a city councilor in my very small city of 16,000 people and we recently passed a resolution. Basically, we don't use the terminology sanctuary city here, but we call it welcoming city, so it's more of a historically used term and also, to this point around language, sanctuary city tends to be a little bit more of like a red flag for outside actors and people who don't have best interest in heart. So, in any case, we've recently passed a resolution declaring East Hampton to be a welcoming city for trans, gender, diverse, non-binary, intersex people, and so we had a huge turnout from the community. I was one of the counselors who sponsored and co-wrote this resolution, and the reason why it's been coming to mind as you were talking is because we had so many social workers come and basically speak in support of us passing this resolution, and the sort of running joke throughout the whole night was that every time a social worker would get up and say I'm a social worker, they would also say and I happen to also be trans, non-binary, whatever, whatever.

And it's just was really making me think back to kind of what we started talking about earlier, which is that for folks in this work, a lot of times it's triply complex because we're doing all these things. It's so difficult, it's complicated, it's scary, it's dangerous, and people are not only supporting communities that are being harmed, they are perhaps themselves also either in danger of being harmed or actively being harmed, and so just there's so much going on right now, and so I just wanted to kind of name that, because even in a very small city, which is in no way able to be in comparison to New York City, we're seeing these issues come up. We had an ice raid recently and we had people taken from our streets in a small town of 16,000 people. So it's everywhere, and you know, and the challenges that you're naming are pervasive. Yes, yeah.

0:58:16 - Gisselle Pardo And I just want to say thank you actually forvasive yes, yeah, and I just want to say thank you actually for that, for doing that.

It doesn't matter how big the city is. It's like for doing that work and getting that resolution, that bill passed, for being a welcoming city and it sounds like in giving space to the community and to social workers to have a voice, and sometimes I think it's the smaller places that are like brave enough to do that. That sometimes can be a model for larger places. So I want to say thank you for that and, yes, I think many people doing this work are often part of the community themselves, whatever community they're advocating for. So they're being, they're holding like, trying to hold space for the community, trying to hold space for themselves or their loved ones, and, you're right, they're being harmed and exposed to this in multiple ways. Yet I think we need more people from the communities. Like, we all feel better when we're like, oh, I see myself in that person that's trying to help me, right. So we need more people from the community.

0:59:11 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, right, because, like you know, and I think about this, like in my own personal experience, I'm like my, again, my therapist is great and she gets most of what I say, but you know, sometimes I'll say something and it there. It's hard to relate because she hasn't necessarily had that lived experience, although in my case it's more. She doesn't get like memes and gifis, and so that's an age thing and age is a real thing, but anyway. But I want to talk a little bit. We don't have to talk about my trying to explain TikTok to my therapist, but what I want to shift a little bit back into is kind of building off of what we've just been talking about.

So you know, a lot of what we're talking about is moments of crisis, right, and so obviously social workers are dealing with this on an everyday basis. But I think, especially in today's world, this idea of harm and crisis and danger is just like you said, it's sort of like ratcheted up to 11. And so for you, how do you think about crisis intervention? Has that changed at all, especially in the last year or so? Whether that's been, you know, on paper, emotionally, spiritually, logistically, what is that kind of? How has that on paper emotionally, spiritually, logistically. What is that kind of? How has that been playing out for you? How have you been thinking about it?

1:00:24 - Gisselle Pardo How has it been looking for you? Wow, so I'm not going to go through. I mean, I think everyone knows what crisis means. I'm not going to go through that. I do think that in some of the work it can, it might have looked for many people, as I'm dealing with an individual in crisis, right, they're feeling suicidal, somebody's harming their children, someone is in an interpersonal violence relationship and they're being harmed Again.

Social work always takes that zoom out and be like, okay, what's sustaining If it's DV, like what's sustaining this power dynamic? On a larger contextual level, but I think that in this moment, lots of the individuals that we're seeing that are in crisis. It's yes, I am feeling I'm in crisis because of this situation and this situation is so much larger, right, so, situations like my families are being separated because of ICE. So that's a crisis on both an individual level, like we've got to support the people left, the children left, but then it is larger in the societal piece that we've been talking about. And how do we try to make an impact at the same time on multiple levels?

And that's kind of where I've been thinking about it more, because I can't, I can, the individual needs to be focused on, but at the same time, we need to be focusing on these larger pieces and how to intervene there, how to hopefully stop meso macro, it's crisis everywhere. What I'd say, too, is that because I think things feel so urgent right now and everything feels like kind of constant, like on fire, I've also been thinking a lot in some of the stuff that I supervise, about like I think we also need to like slow down. While it might feel like there's more urgency, like slow down because we're running a marathon. For those of us who've recently run marathon, not me, one and done.

One and done, one and done. This is a long race, and so I do think that the people doing this work need to kind of slow down, think about how do they stay sustained, because it's hard to live in this kind of. It's what it does to our systems to live in this constant state of crisis, of hypervigilance, and we need to figure out ways to slow down. I have a colleague I work with and I'm going to name drop her in case she listens it's Dr Juhi Malhotra. Often talks about this in our social work, about the power of the pause and like how powerful it is to just say I need to pause for a moment, right, whether to reflect, to like re-energize, re-nourish, and I'm trying to like embody that a little bit more, because I feel like everything is in crisis right now and we need to figure out a way to kind of sustain ourselves and slow down to be able to do the work.

1:03:20 - Rachel Murray Thank you for sharing that and, relatedly, I wanted to ask you know, as we talk about how to be, how to have this be sustainable, and I also want to just credit Felicia for something that she has said that has always stuck with me, even though it made me sad when she was like yeah because she's so right it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. She was like it's a marathon that never ends.

I was like that's true and also depressing, thank you. So, with all of this, how do you stay grounded? How do you protect your own humanity while you're holding so much for other people? How do you deal with it?

1:04:08 - Gisselle Pardo I'm not always great at it, because I always feel like I'm the person that's like oh wait, there's this crisis happening over here. Somebody wants to do that. I have to work on that. You know, at the beginning, back in November, when the election happened and I was feeling just so demoralized and hopeless, I came across an article. It was in the Migrant Network. I want to say it's I'm terrible at this I of Pollyanna like optimism that things are going to get better or it's going to be OK. Because we don't know that.

This concept of reasonable hope is like how do you make sense of what's happening right now and how do you think about what's, what's some reasonable to achieve? Like, like moving towards and it's a verb versus a noun Like I have hope. It's like I'm working on hope. Like how do I make sense of this? What can I do now? What can I do with what we have? And that felt. That feels more manageable to me, rather than thinking like how am I going to dismantle? How are we going to dismantle this regime? Right, like, what can I do today? I mean it's, it's so I I really have been trying to hold on to that concept, a couple of other things and it's a great if you just Google it. I mean I hope it's just a great article because it's like it's also like a practice, like you got to work at having reasonable hope. You don't just have it and you're better off doing it in community and in conversation, like we're doing it. There's something in there about like the importance of just holding space for ambiguity and uncertainty but also holding on to like joy and almost like intentionally seeking joy and seeking it's like these daily moments of awe and I'm like that's really hard.

But the other day I went to pick up my niece and anybody who hangs out any time with me knows that all I talk about is her, because she's almost three, she's a little mini me and she brings me so much joy. But like I'm that obnoxious aunt that it's like oh, you want to know how my niece is going. Let me show you the million videos of her. But I bring her up because the other day when I picked her from school, we were walking and she's just like look a bumblebee, Look there's a bunny rabbit, and it was like a statue of a bunny rabbit, like in front of a house, and I just thought, oh my God, everything is in awe and wonder and I miss having those moments. And I think that tiny walk, that 10 minute walk home with her, was so wonderful to be like huh, I didn't know that there's been this statue of a bunny rabbit in this house who knows for how long, or that like there's this oh yeah, you're right, there are flowers in front of this place and just these moments of awe and wonder, and I'm trying to hold on to more of that, to stay grounded, and so I appreciate that she actually had this great moment for me. She's also much lower to the ground, so she's paying attention to all of those things.

So I think I've been holding on to that concept and then I've been trying to do things like I need to be in community. I don't do well, like in this moment. I need to be around other people, spending time with good friends, spending time in places with beautiful weather, like a San Diego, being outside music, dancing, like all those things, that kind of like just, and I try to do them at least two of those things every week at minimum. It's the only way to say like I went out and like listen to some good music, spend time with a three-year-old playing picnic or whatever she's got planned for us that day, because she plans it. I pick her up and I'm like what are we playing today? And she's got a list. That really just helps me stay incredibly grounded.

1:07:57 - Felicia Jadczak I love that and I love that concept of reasonable hope, because I feel like when you not when you specifically, but when we writ large, generally talk about these concepts of like, you know, you have to hold space for joy. We have to balance out the depression with, you know, taking, you know, the time to acknowledge the good. I think that sometimes what happens is that A it can be really tempting, especially in times like these, to just throw away all the good stuff and just slide right on into that negativity spiral, because it's so real and it's so tempting and it's not something that's just in our minds, you know, and I think that maybe a decade ago or however long ago, a lot of people might have been like oh well, you know, this is like a problem, but now it's an us problem, so it's much more real and so that makes it, I think, heavier in a lot of ways. But then, on the flip side, I also see there's, you know, people who maybe tend to have more privilege and aren't actually as like in it as other folks, like social workers or DEI practitioners or people who hold marginalized identities or immigrants or whoever. They're not holding as much of that.

And there's still impact. I'm not downplaying any of that by any stretch of imagination, but they're in a pretty good spot day to day anyway. And then there's this sort of like over-reliance on well, we have to lean into the joy and it's like, well, yeah, but you also have to still do the hard work and that kind of sometimes gets lost along the way. So I really like all the briefs that. I like this idea of reasonable hope, because I think that for me personally and Rachel may remember this or notice like I I get annoyed sometimes and people sort of like try to be overly positive because I'm like, but the negative still exists. Attitude of gratitude.

1:09:48 - Rachel Murray She hates it so much.

1:09:50 - Gisselle Pardo I'm with you there.

1:09:53 - Felicia Jadczak I don't like when everyone's like it's all going to be okay. But yeah, I mean, it's just like you know, like let's be realistic, but also we have to keep the hope going Because, like you said, like you know, I think a lot of people are having these conversations around. You know whether it was your family decades ago when they left Ecuador and what was that like and what was that moment like. And now a lot of people are having the same conversations about leaving the US. And you know, I'm having those conversations with friends where we literally just had a friend come over, like a week or two ago, and we sat on my couch and talked about the way we called. It was like what's our red line? Like what's the red line in which we'll say we got to walk out the door with our backpack and our clothes and that's it.

And you know, I don't I don't have a good answer for that, but the fact that we're having these conversations is making all of this much more put into stark relief, I think. So you've listed, you listed a lot of good ways that I think you practice your daily reasonable hopes. Is there anything that you would add to that list, especially for folks who are maybe listening who are in more of like a social work role, or maybe in a kind of role, like obviously we work in corporate, so maybe it's not social work per se, but it could be someone in an HR function or a people ops person, or even just someone who wants to help themselves and their colleagues Like are there any other moments of joy or that you maybe would like to add?

1:11:13 - Gisselle Pardo to that list. You know, and I want to say like I appreciate what you said, that I think everyone talks now. Everyone's talking about like lean into the joy or I don't know. Someone said, like dancing is a form of resistance, and yes, this is all true, but like sometimes feel like it's also being a little overused, like, yes, go dancing and let's do the work.

In that concept of reasonable hope, there's also this idea of like the small is not trivial and so even like small actions. So in this moment I work with social workers who really are on the front line of supporting immigrant families and there's such a sense of like hopelessness sometimes, yeah, but there's, I think, to sustain this work. You also got to think this thing you thought was small isn't small. Like you sat and you listened to this family's fears or you actually celebrated with them their child's one year anniversary, one year birthday. You've helped, as hard as this sounds, you helped families. You're doing a lot of like helping families actually do emergency planning, like almost getting their affairs in order in the event that they are detained In this big hopelessness, it can actually make someone feel like I've got some control to plan, and so those actions we take every day in doing this work are not small by any means, like I think they have.

They can have really big ripple effects and I think that's important for us to hold on to so that we can sustain the work. I think this conversation made me think and I know I'm kind of going around like at the beginning when you asked me about like how I got into this work and I think, well, much to my well, I never became a doctor and much to my mother's disappointment, I never married a doctor, because that was the alternative. You're not going to become one marry one. So none of those things happened. But I'd like to think, and I do think, that the work that I've done has impacted lives and so that their sacrifice was worth it, because I'm having ripple effects on people's lives, as small as they are. So I think to do this work you got to be like everything I, no matter how small I may feel in the moment, is not trivial. It is, it can have these big effects.

1:13:11 - Rachel Murray Giselle, I guess something just like clicked in my brain is, like, felicia and I have talked about this before. As far as, like, this idea of what kind of impact does our work make? Right, we think about the training and you know people poo-poo the training all the time because they're like, well, you didn't make systemic change, so it's pointless. Well, we're like, well, okay, well, we'll make individual change. And you know, the work isn't good unless it's scalable. Right, it's got to be like, you got to have it scale and it's got to be big. It's got to be big and it's got to be fast, big and fast.

And now, like, that is just always the message, and I think slow and intentional and individual can be just as powerful. Yet in the society that we live in, it's just not valued. So I'm really glad that you said that, because I think that there's a lot of value in the work that we do to show up and in fact we just in our last interview, just finding those moments of joy and connection and being in that sort of like that space, even with us individually, has the ripple effect. How we show up ourselves, will have impact. So cheers to that. I say Thank you for making the world a little bit brighter, and I know we're dangerously close to our end time here.

1:14:39 - Felicia Jadczak I just want to add one more quick just to before we move away from that point we have an employee who's no longer on the team, but she used to say all the time, small is all. And that was what was kind of running through my mind as you both were talking. Because, yes, we tend to focus on the big and especially like I think you know, we sort of started in the beginning talking about the patriarchy and like you know, what would a patriarchy potentially look like? And that's what I think is the biggest difference, like okay, let's not look at ROI and big and you know numbers and blah, blah blah, but like we have to balance it with the small moments too. So, yeah, Word.

1:15:18 - Rachel Murray Sometimes I have to bring out my 1980s jersey, it just happens. So, before we go, is there anything that we missed, giselle, that you want to share with our lovely listeners?

1:15:29 - Gisselle Pardo You know, kind of maybe building off this last piece with discussion like what we can do to sustain the work. In social work, we talk a lot about and I share lots of it about self-care, and then you can get this like article or this, like you should go for a long walk and eat healthy and go for a massage and, you know, take a pottery class, and some of this also implies having some privilege that I can afford to go to, like you know what, a massage class in New York City to do all of that. And so, yes, self-care is important, but I think everyone doing this work has to figure out what that means for them. And, you know, for someone it could be like having a conversation with two amazing people in the middle of the afternoon. Like this has been fun, this is great. I'd also like a massage, but this has been lovely. Like this, just to say like it looks different for everyone.

And organizations have a responsibility to care for their individual, like the people that do this work.

Like it shouldn't just be something that bothers me in social work, because it's often like you got to also do this hard work and go figure out how to take care of yourself.

So in the organization where I used to be and where I was a co-ed, we did a lot of thinking about like how do we do this? We added like mental health days so that people can say, like you know, I'm not sick and it's not like I'm on vacation, I just am burnt out. Today I need to take a mental health day. Or like, how do we do like outings that aren't like we're just taking you to lunch, it's like everybody gets to pick. How do we create like this real embody, this real idea of co-creation, so everyone, at any level, has the opportunity to like lead something or have an opinion or I don't know, not to say that we did it great, but like we were constantly thinking that responsibility is also ours. So I think I'm going to leave on the note that self-care and sustaining this work isn't like we got to figure it out for ourselves, but the people and the organizations we work with have to figure out how to sustain us so that it can work. That's it.

1:17:22 - Felicia Jadczak Love that. It's everyone's job, especially on the part of organizations. If people would like to learn more, find you. Is there a good place to direct our listeners that they want to connect and learn more?

1:17:35 - Gisselle Pardo Well, that's the one question I didn't really like like think about. Like LinkedIn, you can like look me up there. I am also at NYU School of Social Work and I am in different places. And I will also say I am at an early childhood program that's very special to my heart called Nido de Esperanza, which means Nest of Hope, speaking of hope, and it really is a really amazing community. So I think, if you're interested in looking at that, look at our website. We have an amazing video of which I am the narrator and I'm very proud of like doing that.

1:18:11 - Felicia Jadczak So we will try to link that in our show notes.

1:18:14 - Rachel Murray Yes, All right, yay, thank you so much, giselle, thank you for having me, and this has been fun. Yay, I'm here. I'm so happy to have Giselle on. We hope that you enjoyed listening to this interview as much as we enjoyed the conversation.

1:18:32 - Felicia Jadczak Thank you so much for listening and please don't forget to rate, share and subscribe. It does make a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and, by extension, our work. You can visit us on YouTube, instagram and LinkedIn and you can sign up for our newsletter at inclusiongeeks dot com forward slash newsletter to stay up to date on all things Inclusion Geeks Stay geeky. Bye.