Belonging and Somatic Leadership with Rhodes Perry

[00:06.7] Hi, and welcome to the she Geeks out podcast, where we geek out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work making the world a better and brighter place. I'm your co host, Rachel. And I'm the other co host, Felicia. Yay. Our guest today. Yes, Yay.

[00:22.4] Yay for co hosts. But we don't just talk to ourselves. We also talk to amazing guests. And our guest today is Rhodes Perry, who is a social entrepreneur, a, speaker, fellow podcast host, and a nationally recognized LGBTQ thought leader. His consulting group, Rhodes Perry Consulting, helps leaders and organizations build belonging at work.

[00:41.9] We talk about his career path, we dig into belonging, of course, and we chat a little bit about what it takes to be doing this kind of work in 2026, the year of our Lord. But before we hear from Rhodes, as always, let's get into it.

[00:59.3] And I think we have to be honest with our lovely listeners that, we were really struggling. It's a wild time. We're like, should we just skip it? And just. Because there's just so much to get into that, you know, is. Is hard. And bad. Yeah. And really depressing.

[01:14.6] And we don't want that. There's enough of that in the world. So we want to keep it. Keep it light. If you want to have some of the dark stuff, there's plenty of resources. I mean, honestly, like, reach out to us separately. But the problem is that we would probably spend five hours and then. Poor Rhodes interview.

[01:30.6] Not even. So we don't want that to happen. But, we thought that we focus a little bit more on some good stuff that is happening right now. And I think that's actually a really great lead in to the conversation that we have with Rhoans, which is really wonderful and lovely and intentional. But so before we get to that part, what's lighting you up these days, Rachel?

[01:50.3] Yeah, well, you know, I guess I just think that you really inspired me because I am a newly elected board member for our neighborhood planning committee. Yeah, yeah. Wait, tell us more about this. Obviously, I know everything, but tell our listeners what is, what's going on?

[02:06.3] What are you doing? Yeah, so. So in the neighborhood that I live in, north park in San Diego, there's a planning committee. There are planning committees all over the country that are basically act as liaisons to the greater city and help with things like, traffic calming and bus lanes and zoning stuff, and, just sort of way to sort of get involved in our local community.

[02:32.0] And I honestly, I did it because I have plenty to Do. But I was like, I live on a corner, and on the corner we have a two, way stop sign. And I witness near accidents regularly. And I've seen a couple of real accidents.

[02:49.6] So I sort of was pitching for that. So I went to the meeting to advocate for that because the city denied me. And, And they can help with that kind of stuff. And I saw there's a committee of 15 people, and there were actually just two women. And you know how we roll.

[03:06.5] And so I was like, all right, let's get some ladies up in here. Some ladies up in here. We need some parody, you know? And, So, yeah, so I decided to throw my hat in the ring because it. The elections were just happening. And, yeah, it was actually kind of wild because, there were seven open seats out of the 15 and 20 people ran, which they said was the most.

[03:31.6] Yeah. They've seen in recent memory. And, And 10 were women, which was incredible. In fact, I saw the women because we all had sort of give a little pitch about why we should run. And I saw the women coming up, and I almost was like, actually, I'm good.

[03:47.1] All I wanted was representation, but I was like, no, I gotta follow through. So I did, and then I got in. So that was exciting. So I officially get seated. I don't, Probably around. Just around the time this gets launched. This episode gets launched. So, yeah, it's very excited. And, And obviously, Felicia, you're an inspiration because you're on city council where you are, and, you know, just this whole idea of getting, really intentional about being local.

[04:14.0] I think the reason why we saw 20 people,

[04:19.1] participate is because I do. And a lot of young folks too. It wasn't, just like, retired folks doing it, and a lot of young folks are actually already on the committee is, you know, as crazy as this timeline is right now for so many people, I think one thing that a lot of us have been recognizing is the importance of focusing on local community and staying in connection with people.

[04:41.7] So I think that's been really cool to see. Well, I love that for you. And I, I feel very honored that I was, in some small part, an inspiration. It's funny, as you were sharing, I was thinking because, you know, I've been on city council for a year and a couple months now, almost a year and a half.

[04:59.6] And, when I got on, I would. I still joke about how it's. It is so Parks and Rec. And, like, people are like, parks and rec. Parks And Rec, It's a documentary, but I was thinking about how the first season of Parks and Rec, like, she's trying to get the. The playground built, right? And you're like, I'm trying to get my stop sign.

[05:17.5] It's so true. Like, that's such an entry point in a way in for a lot of people. So it makes. It makes total sense. But, you know, I think both of us are recognizing, and it sounds like a lot of other people are recognizing, too, that, you know, especially in times like right now, where things feel and are super out of control, you and I cannot change global political things that are happening, that are still impacting us.

[05:42.3] But what we can do is we can actually have impact at our local neighborhood level. And I think, at least for me, and I think for you, too, that feels really good because it's like, okay, you know, we're definitely. We are akin in this way where, like, we want to, like, make things happen and be the voices in the room and direct the change.

[06:02.0] And we don't want other people to tell us what's happened. We want to be part of that process. And so I think it's really important, and it's so important to have representation, too. So I agree. Thank you. I agree with all of that, obviously. And I do want to put a plug in for one other thing. So me and Claude, you know, we're buddies, as you know, Felicia.

[06:23.1] And, you know, we certainly talk a lot about AI in our work, and who doesn't talk about it? I know everyone's sick of it already, but here we are. And, what. So I love building sites. So one of the first sites I built was this thing called Kind Connector, which is essentially a mutual aid website, to help, you know, small communities share the resources that they have with each other.

[06:48.9] And there's no discussion board, which I love. And so, anyway, so someone who knows about it have reached out to me to tell me about this other really cool nonprofit called Relational Tech Project. So if you go to relationaltechproject.org they are basically nerds that want to help community.

[07:08.1] And so they have all of these communities around the world that are adding stories, adding tools, adding apps and platforms that people can leverage within their own communities. So it's super cool. It's pretty new. And I just think it's really neat that, you know, I think folks are realizing that you.

[07:27.0] That you can. Yeah, you can. You still can leverage technology for good, even if the big baddies aren't. We can the, the technology is still available to all of us to do good with. So there's that. It's just like use your powers for good, not evil. Yes. I mean, that's what tools are.

[07:43.9] Right? Like at the end of the day, this is just another tool and it is the humans that are the ones that have the agency to. Yeah. Was that with great power comes great responsibility. Great responsibility. Thanks, Spider Man. Thanks, Peter Parker. Or actually, is that the uncle I don't even remember now?

[08:00.8] Yeah, the uncle that said it. That's right. Anyway, I love it. But it's true. It's true. No, I'm, really excited to check this out. I just learned about it right before we started recording, so I'm super excited to check it out. And you, were telling me that there's some stuff in there about projects like Porch Fest, which, I am, one of the co founders of our Porch Fest here in East Hampton.

[08:24.6] And it's our. Gosh, it's coming on our fourth year this fall, which is really amazing. So I'm excited to see if there's stuff I can leverage for that because we're just starting our planning for that and obviously that is a lot of work, but that's a little bit of what's lighting me up today. And, the other thing I want to mention really quickly, I think very much on point and on theme with what you were sharing is I, want to give a shout out to a community called the Old Girls Club, which you told me about.

[08:54.3] I'd never heard that before. Love them. And it's really awesome. I don't know how many people are in it at this point, but it seems like there's a ton of people in it. It's just a really supportive community. It reminds me a lot of our old she geeks out community back in the day, which I missed here every day thing.

[09:13.6] Multiple tiers. Multiple tiers. Yeah. Really fun. Is actually. I am constantly like seeing people I know pop up in the slack. I just saw someone the other day and I was like, oh my God, I know this person. And it's been great to reconnect. But there is a channel in there which is for basically poc, affinity.

[09:32.2] An affinity channel for poc. And so it's been kind of quiet. I've only been in there, I think since February. January. February. But it's been a little quiet. But there's been a few of us who've been like, hey, we should like, get this going and like, can we do a meetup or something? So we just had our first like virtual meetup yesterday and it was really awesome.

[09:51.6] I was telling you earlier that I almost didn't go because, you know, you know how it is. Yep. I was like, oh, the world is terrible and on fire and I just want to doom scroll and my head is hurting and I don't know what's happening. I don't want to talk to people. But then I made myself get on it and I'm so glad I did because it's just such a good reminder of like the power and importance of connection with people, even virtually.

[10:15.6] I think in person, person is obviously really important and I think feeds a whole other side of us. But the virtual connections are important and meaningful too. And I think there was maybe like around like maybe 10 people on, on the zoom. And it was just every single person was so badass and awesome and like doing really cool things and it was just so lovely to just feel uplifted and like in community and we're going to try and make it a regular thing and it was just really, really nice to be able to connect with people.

[10:46.9] I, think I was the only person from Massachusetts actually. There are a bunch of people from New York. There's one person in la, actually a couple people from, from the California area. And then one woman signed in from Italy. Like she was literally eating dinner and wow, just like, so cool.

[11:03.9] So, yeah, that's kind of what's lighting me up is just, you know, there's like, I'm quoting this heavily in person connections no matter what the delivery format is. But, it's a good reminder that like the world is burning. But also, you know, there's cool people out there doing interesting things and being awesome.

[11:22.6] Yeah, I love that. I'm so happy that you participated. You know, I definitely appreciate the. I don't want to go and then going and be like, I mean this is like every time there was like every single event that we used to ever throw as she gets out, you and I would always be like. And then we get there like this and then at the end of the night and I would just remember every single time we'd be like, like, so we're like duck out early, right?

[11:41.5] And we'd be like, yeah, we're totally going to duck out early. And then we would be last ones there, last one down the space. Yeah, we had the coolest people. We had the coolest people. And hopefully some of, some of them are listening to this. I Think they are. Yeah, I do too. I'm optimistic. Hi. I'll just say hi to you.

[11:57.7] Hello and miss you. We hope you're doing well. And that's actually true for everyone who's listening to this. Yes. So is it time? I think it's time. And it actually, it's a really good transition point because, you know, speaking of awesome people who are doing really cool things, and again, this conversation we had with Rhodes was just like, so soul fulfilling and uplifting.

[12:19.6] And I remember after we ended our conversation, we both were like, oh, my God, that was so, just so lovely. Yeah. So I'm really excited to have you all be able to, hear from Rhodes as well. So I guess without further ado, welcome to the show, Rhodes all.

[12:35.4] Right. Our guest today is Rhodes Perry. Consultant, entrepreneur, author, fellow podcast host, speaker, and so much more. So welcome, Rhodes. Hello. It's great to be here. Yes. We're so excited to have you. We're just going to jump right on in. So you are the founder and CEO of Rhodes Perry Consulting, or RPC for short.

[12:53.2] And you founded that about 10 years ago with the charge of trying to upend the epidemic of loneliness. So I'm curious if you can just start us off by talking a little bit about what the impetus for this was and what you actually mean when you say the epidemic of loneliness. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's great to be here.

[13:09.2] And, you say 10 years, so it's hard to believe that it's been a decade kind of running my own thing. And, the impetus for me was really realizing that while organizations were really getting better at hiring for diversity, they were failing at retention because people didn't feel safe, they didn't feel connected, they didn't want to stay.

[13:32.5] And so when I'm talking about the epidemic of loneliness, I'm talking about this profound isolation that we can feel when we have to hide or cover certain parts of ourselves just to survive the workplace, just to survive the workday. And loneliness isn't just a feeling in the way that I frame it.

[13:51.0] For the clients that I work with, it's a business risk that often most of my clients aren't looking out for. So the way that I frame it is that if your people are lonely, if they're feeling isolated, the sting of exclusion, they're likely not collaborating, they're not innovating, they're not performing at those levels that many employers want.

[14:10.0] And I share, I like to share a story which is, you know, early in my career, I Worked at the White House, and I. I did not feel safe. So the job was amazing. You know, I was 26, and I was managing an $11 billion budget, and it was. You know, on paper, it seemed like a great job, but at the end of each day, I found myself pretty exhausted and disconnected from my team.

[14:33.1] And the static really was. Is that while my colleagues were validating who I am, they were using my name properly and my pronoun. I had already transitioned my gender, several years before. Yet I felt that I couldn't share all of myself. I had to cover aspects of my gender history because I was afraid that that could potentially get weaponized at work because there were no workplace protections in 2006 for transgender workers.

[14:58.6] And sadly, in this moment, there aren't either. So there's real consequences, when we feel unsafe and we lack the sense of trust, which truly, I believe are the foundations for belonging at work. Really well said, and couldn't agree with you more.

[15:16.7] It's such a loss for everyone, when you don't have that in place. So thank you for sharing that. And speaking of the White House, let's get into your journey a little bit. I mean, you. It's just so impressive. You worked, as you mentioned, in the White House, doj, New York City's Administration for Children's Services, and PFLAG International.

[15:38.4] Talk us through how you ended up where you are today. Yeah, well, it definitely wasn't a straight line, you know, and when I look back, right, it's always like, I'm often following the breadcrumbs. I'm following, like, where I need to go. And I have a mentor who's often saying, breadcrumbs, be the loaf.

[15:54.6] Right? But, in. In hindsight, right, like, the through line for me was always about advocacy. So whether I was, you know, working for a government agency, whether I was at the White House, or, working for the Administration for Children's Services, I. I was really ultimately changing systems from the inside.

[16:11.5] So I had a job that I was doing. And on top of that, I was like, hang on a second. There's kind of like this invisible fence or, something of a barrier that I'm running up against as someone who's transgender. Why don't we kind of look at this?

[16:27.3] And fortunately, the employers that I was working for were open to kind of saying, oh, yeah, we never knew that. Let's make a fix. Let's change this so we can kind of drop the ladder down. So I guess looking back, it Wasn't that I realized that it's not necessarily about policy change.

[16:47.0] While that's really critical, I started my own company because I wanted to bridge this gap of going from high level strategy and combining that with this human centered work of building cultures of what I talk about as building cultures of belonging to.

[17:03.9] And so I really kind of shifted, moving from being kind of a policy nerd to really kind of centering my work around people and human centered relationships. So I've really been deepening into that, of recognizing that in doing the type of work that we all do, I think the value add for the people that we work for is that we're improving kind of interpersonal connection and relationships.

[17:32.4] And obviously that helps in the workplace for performance. Right. But it helps in all aspects of our lives and just being more connected, present human beings respecting, each other and being curious about our differences. So that's kind of the through line that I'm making sense when I look back and I look at my resume where I'm like, okay, how did I get here?

[17:52.9] And it does make sense. Yeah, it's so funny because I remember vividly being fresh out of college and having no idea what I wanted to do. And everyone's sort of older saying, it'll make sense, it'll all come and fall into place. And I remember thinking now and then when you do look back, you do start to pull out those, those storylines and it does make sense and sort of, you know, it's your, your journey and your pathway.

[18:16.7] So I love that that's, you know, the breadcrumbs have, have kind of coalesced into the full loaf. We were just talking about bread before we started recording. So I feel like maybe that's the theme of today. I want to go back to sort of like around 10 years ago when you were starting your, your consulting company.

[18:35.0] And it's so funny because we've talked with other people too. Startup entrepreneurship journey. You know, we like 2016 was just a real catalyst of a year in so many ways for so many people, including ourselves. But if I think back to that time frame, we had just started, formally offering our diversity training and at the time we were calling it diversity and inclusion or D.

[19:03.0] And I, and I still vividly remember the moment where we met with somebody who introduce the acronym dei and I truly will never forget. I truly thought she was like Ms. Speaking. And just it took me a minute to be like, wait, what's this? E. That's now, in this conversation, but for you, you know, you talked a little bit about this already with the loneliness discussion, but I feel like you were one of the first people or like one of the forerunners who was really talking about belonging in this space.

[19:31.9] Because as a practitioner myself, I know that I wasn't really introducing belonging into the work that we were doing, until quite a bit later. So I'm just curious, you know, why the focus on belonging as opposed to another concept or element that may have been more like, you know, popular or sort of more in the zeitgeist, in the DEI space at that time frame, or did that also kind of develop out organically as well?

[19:56.9] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that question. When I. When I was first getting started, So I started, January 2016 was like, my first day of opening my business. And, I remember the year before, I was listening to Pat Waiters. She was working at LinkedIn. She was the head of their people and culture department.

[20:15.0] And she was just giving a little TED Talk, so it wasn't anything elaborate. And she was saying, I get the strategies behind diversity, equity and inclusion. I understand that these are people outcomes when we talk about diversity. I understand inclusion is a behavioral outcome. Equity is a system outcome.

[20:31.0] Get all that. I don't feel a heart behind that. For the sake of what. And so she introduced this concept of belonging to. And I was like, that's it. That's what this is all kind of working around. Is this emotional outcome of the sense of belonging?

[20:46.7] Do I feel seen? Do I feel valued? Do I feel connected and trusting? Am I getting what I need to be successful? And do I feel a sense of pride that my contributions make meaning in the workplace? And, it's a human. We're talking emotions here.

[21:02.8] So it's something that we all can relate to. It doesn't matter our age, it doesn't matter our position. And, And so for me, it helped me kind of build bridges, particularly with leaders who, really love the concept of belonging, Particularly for those of us who find our own businesses, it's like, oh, I'm the creator of this business and the culture is reflecting me.

[21:23.2] So, yes, I feel like I have that sense of belonging and to kind of create that bridge in getting leadership teams more curious about, like, you may have a strong sense of belonging. Some of you may not. Right? So there's already maybe a kind of contrast there. How many of you, also believe that those furthest removed from your positions of power have that same internal sense of Belonging.

[21:44.7] And most people couldn't answer that question, right? So we talk about cultural audits, or we talk about, like, challenging assumptions that we may have versus, like, really looking at these numbers around engagement, psychological safety, trust, and like, what is that true cost of not having that.

[22:01.1] And it just, it really helped kind of, kind of be that gel of understanding that, especially with where we're at right now and recognizing diversity, equity and inclusion. These are all strategies to create better workplace cultures. They're not the only strategies.

[22:16.3] They're very effective. They're still needed. We may rebrand them. Right. But there's always a place for them. But what is it for? Right. And can we. You know, I love to push leaders to kind of like. And I wrote about this in my second book, Imagine Belonging, which is like, like a frustration I had is working with teams of like, okay, so you want to make this investment.

[22:35.8] You're very clear on the assumptions of what this is all about, right? But, like, 10 years from now, how does that impact your culture, like, on a felt sensory level? Can you name it? Can you start to describe it? And it was very difficult. And I think part of the reason why that might be difficult is when we don't feel safe, we lack a sense of psychological, safety.

[22:57.0] Imagination and creativity are very challenging, especially layering on top of that any kind of workplace trauma that we might have, that's out of reach. Right. So, it created, some really good conversations that allowed us to be really clear on what we wanted to do together and what indicators of success would be.

[23:14.9] Are we moving towards that vision, or do we need to. Course correct. So that's why I did it. Rhodes. That's probably one of the best articulations of why people should consider belonging in this work, in the Alphabet soup of this work.

[23:32.1] So thank you for, for sharing that. And, I, I do want to at some point talk about the somatic aspect of it, which I feel like you were touching upon. But I want to put a pin in that for a moment because I do want to get to this next question that we have, because I, I think it's really important, and I know it's something that we think about a lot here.

[23:54.5] So, you know, we are at a, we're in a very interesting time when it comes to how we all relate to each other, whether that's in the workplace or outside of the workplace. And we know that some people have harmful ideologies, harmful beliefs, harmful, harmful ways of, of thinking in the world.

[24:18.6] So when we think about Belonging. Do we think they still get to belong? And if so, how? Yeah, so, hardest question, when I was reviewing the questions that you shared with me in advance. Thank you. I wanted to be careful around it.

[24:37.1] It's hard and it's one of the most important. Right. And so to me, especially when we get to talking about somatics, we talk about energetic boundaries. So for me, belonging definitely has some kind of boundaries around it. So when we're thinking about a culture of belonging, we can't get there without a culture of safety and trust.

[24:55.9] And so if we tolerate behavior that destroys safety. No, there are certain ideologies that can really deny the humanity of others, and cannot belong in a healthy culture. So we have to name that.

[25:11.2] We have to be very clear about what we're talking about and what we're not talking about. So, of course, like, we can have diversity of thought. We can be in generative conflict around ideas. Like, I'm all about that. But we can't. We can't have diversity of respect. Right.

[25:26.6] There's some basic baselines of what we mean about respect. Respecting each other's humanity, respecting each other's identities. Like, distinguishing between behaviors and who we are. Right. Like, just because I mess up and I might say something that causes harm or do an action that causes harm, I'm not a bad person.

[25:45.4] The behavior certainly can be course corrected, and we have to be open to that, especially when we're on diverse teams where we're all coming from different lived experiences, all the things that are at our back. So if our beliefs require some form of exclusion or harm, that harms our colleagues, we're breaking that contract of belonging.

[26:06.3] And I think that's really important, just to be clear about that. And that may not align with some people who, find that it's okay to denigrate certain people. If that's an ideology that a certain workplace has, I'm probably not the best consultant to work with that organization.

[26:25.6] But, I find that being able to talk about these boundaries really builds trust because we know what we're talking about. We know when we might run afoul of that. And I find that to be really helpful in the work. Yeah, yeah, no, I know, and it is a.

[26:42.0] It is a tough question. And as. As you were speaking, it was. I was reminded of the James Baldwin quote, which. Yeah, so, yeah, I just. And I just have it here. You know, we can disagree and still love each other. Unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist.

[26:57.8] And I think that is what you are articulating. So thank you for sharing that, Felicia. Please, I'll kick it back to you. Well, no, I mean, I'll just add into. I. I was jotting down a note or two as you were sharing. I really, I think, was struck by you talking about, you know, diversity of thought is fine, but we can't have diversity of respect.

[27:15.8] Not to just paraphrase what you just said, but you just said that, and it really struck me. And I think that's so, so important and so true. And, you know, it's something that I talk a lot about with, with folks that I work with in, in my practice where I say, you know, sometimes in order to include, we have to exclude. Like, it doesn't mean we include everything.

[27:31.2] We don't include hatred. We don't include or welcome in harm and oppression, because that's not the goal of what we're trying to do when we're talking about these terms and these strategies, as you put it. So I think it's a really important thing. And I like how you're talking about boundaries and boundary setting with, these concepts.

[27:51.7] I want to go back into the pinned point that you put a pin in earlier now, Rachel, because I think it's a good segue. So you talked a little bit already about Somatics, and both Rachel and I were saying before we started recording that we both had just. Just finished reading your. Your, your newsletter, your email newsletter from today we're recording mid February.

[28:11.2] And you've just come back from a trip to India, which I love because my mom is from India. So anytime I see that, I'm Like, oh, I want to learn more. But, I. So I want to hear about that. And I also want to hear a bit more about how you're thinking about integrating somatic work into all of what we've just been talking about. Or do you see it as something sort of like a, little bit aligned, but different?

[28:30.3] I'm just curious how all the pieces are. Are getting put together for you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot to that. And I guess I would kind of like, I would frame it around like, how my own consulting has evolved based on, you know, where we've been before the pandemic, where we are now.

[28:47.9] And given the assaults on our work, given over the past year and ongoing. So I think for where we are, we've definitely moved from awareness of, like, helping leaders be more Aware of, that not everyone has this emotional outcome of belonging in the workplace to more around embodiment and that so much is a part of the somatic methodology I've been trained in through the Strozzi Institute, where I've been trained as a coach there.

[29:15.0] And so I think just looking back in 2020, particularly after the police murder of George Floyd, in 2021, there was really this rush for education. I'm sure you all saw the book clubs and the worksh, just the definitions and the debate around definitions and words that we use.

[29:37.6] But what I found is that really information alone doesn't transform leadership, it doesn't transform individuals. And so the work that I'm really engaged in now is around leadership development and it's using the somatic methodology, that I'm trained in.

[29:56.6] And the idea is really just to kind of help in this environment of chaos and collapse. And just what we're seeing almost every day is helping leaders first not only regulate their nervous systems, but starting with regulating their nervous systems to be with what's coming and recognizing there's nothing that we've studied, in school or well maybe some history could be helpful right now.

[30:21.3] But in terms of leadership strength and skills, some of what I'm seeing is that some of the leaders I work with are frustrated because I can't control this. We can't control what's shaping us externally, but we can control what is happening internally and we can be with it.

[30:40.1] And when we're in a more regulated state, one we can start to co regulate those that we lead. So if we're in front of a group of people and there might be uncertainty in the room, if we're grounded in a steady state, those that we're leading mirror us and it's very powerful.

[30:56.5] And in that moment we're able to have more choice for making good decisions rather than reacting and potentially harming the relationships that we spent, however many years we spent with this group of people we're leading, to avoid unnecessary harm.

[31:14.2] And so I think this is really helpful for leadership teams in particular because I do work with values driven organizations. Those are my people. And it's one thing to say and describe your values, you can read them off of a page.

[31:32.3] There's another way of embodying them and living them and showing. And I think that alignment is really what builds the safety and trust those conditions that are needed to feeling the sense of belonging. So when I was first introduced to somatics, I had burnt out.

[31:47.4] Halfway through the 10 years of looking back, five years in, I completely burnt out because I was trying to do it all. You all know, as business owners, there's a lot. And, Somatics really saved my life. You know, I'm in the process of writing a new book right now, and it's a Somatics leadership Guide, but it's part memoir, so I share that story in the book.

[32:07.4] And it was the, aha. Moment for me of, like, this was life saving. This totally transformed the way I show up and do my work every day. This is something that I feel called to also be able to teach and share with those that I'm consulting with and working with.

[32:23.8] And so coaching, to me, has been such a gift because in the consulting space, we come in and we wear the hat and we're the knowers and we show and, you know, and sometimes, when we leave, that great work that we were able to accomplish goes away.

[32:39.5] In coaching, what I love is it's emergent, right? So I'm there for the leaders. I'm there for them to hear what's going on and to excavate the wisdom that they already have, not necessarily intellectually, but the wisdom that lives in their tissues, to trust that, especially in moments of chaos or uncertainty.

[33:00.1] And I love it. And so I feel like that's how my business is evolving right now, to meet this moment and to really provide support in a way that, it's out there. I wish it was more readily available for people and that they understood it, that there's still a little bit of an education.

[33:17.7] Hurdle to really kind of communicate. These are the essential leadership skills, in my opinion, that many leaders are kind of starving for and really want, but just don't know that are available. So I really value being on this podcast to share a little bit about that.

[33:34.5] Yeah. Yeah, that was great. And one of the things I was thinking about as you were talking is one of the struggles, I think, with somatic work and leadership, or, I mean, you know, really generational is this idea of.

[33:53.9] It feels so weird, right? Like, getting into our bodies and talk, because I, you know, I've. I've done some of that, right? It feels uncomfortable because it's so interesting at this moment. There is this. This that I think Somatics is a bit in the zeitgeist, and it is perhaps a reaction to us all living, you know, in the cloud, essentially, right on our phones and on screens and sort of disassociating Ourselves, our bodies and our minds a bit.

[34:26.3] So the somatics are calling to it. I'm curious about. Well, I guess if you kind of agree with any of what I just babbled about, but also if you've struggled with getting, folks in leadership positions or maybe even a gen, if there's a generational difference, to sort of do this work and, like, accept it and have it be feeling good, or has there been sort of resistance?

[34:53.1] And how, if so, have you dealt with that? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think how you first opened that where it can be really different. I know the first time I was introduced to somatics, you know, I was in a tough place. And, I remember the coach I was working with was trying to help me understand my condition, tendencies, or like, these patterns that allow me to be alive today.

[35:17.2] You know, they're survival strategies, but they can be the very things that are getting in the way of what I want and what I long for. And we did this practice where there was no content. You know, I wasn't able to share the story or the drama behind, you know, what was going on in my life.

[35:32.7] It was really kind of getting into the shape of what is it like when pressure is coming my way. Literally, it was just kind of. I know this is an audio podcast, but if there's a video, this is what we were doing. But, you know, it's one hand. My left hand was putting pressure on my right hand. And it's like, you know, when pressure's coming in, what do you tend to do?

[35:50.1] And I, you know, I was like, I push through it, I power through it. Right. But then she gave me, like, another example of, like, pressure and more intimate relationships. And I found myself kind of collapsing in. And it was so. I mean, it was so uncomfortable, like, what you were saying, but also so illuminating of just seeing how these patterns get in the way of real intimate connection with people that I love how it just makes work more difficult, more of a struggle when I'm powering through and what is kind of a more resource state where pressure's coming in, but I could just need it it and be with it.

[36:28.3] I might be grumpy about it, I might have a feeling about it, but it's not going to get me off center and take me off focus of what matters most to me. So what I tend to do with leadership teams, especially when I'm introducing the concept, is introducing an exercise and having people actually feel the difference of where they are before we do something together.

[36:49.0] And what's different at the end. And then in a coaching style, asking them, what does this state after we're able to do this practice, what does that make possible for you as a leader? Right. What does that make possible for you if you're leading a team in a moment where there's another crisis that happens, there's another chaotic moment that's impacting the market?

[37:08.5] Right. Like, what are you able to do in a more resource state? And it's not like you have to read 25 new books or take 17 different courses. It's really to be able to engage in some really simple body based practices. And I say simple, right? It's simple in how I introduce it.

[37:24.7] And yet they can be so profound. And that alone, that experience of it shifts people into kind of getting more curious to understand ways that we could work together. And then it's emergent. I never really know what will be the end result other than I know they're going to be in a different shape, it will be more intentional and they're going to be able to have more choice as leaders to navigate these times.

[37:50.5] And I really feel like that's medicine for. For all of us. That resonates so much. And I was just thinking back, I was like, okay, so five years in. So that was around 20, 21. And I was like, yep, also right there, that burnout journey with you.

[38:05.5] Except I didn't have a coach who was teaching me somatics. I'm like, oh, if I could go back in time and take some of these lessons that you just shared, that would have helped me so immensely. So, I'm really glad that you were able to find that in that moment because what I did personally was just push through and I'm like, oof, all right, we need to do these practices later on to sort of help my recovering body and mind.

[38:29.5] But to your point, I think while I wouldn't call myself or Rachel somatics practitioners by any stretch of the imagination, we certainly were not unfamiliar with it. And I think both of us have seen the power in a tense moment, for example, of simply taking a pause and having everyone stand up or go through some box breathing or just sort of reframe and recenter and ground.

[38:54.1] And that can can be so powerful. So I can, I can see from there how this work can really be really impactful for some of the folks that you're working with. I'm curious just to kind of go back to something Rachel, I think, touched on a little bit briefly, but with the folks that you're working with, Rhodes, are you seeing any patterns emerging around?

[39:14.7] Like, are there certain folks who are really receptive to this kind of work? Are there others who are more resistant? Does it matter if someone's older, younger, you know, from different walks of life? Like, just curious if you're seeing any patterns around that or, or not, as the case might be.

[39:32.2] Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a good question. And I'm considering the clients that I'm working with right now and they're, they're very different, you know, like, and, and maybe that's this. I tend to attract a motley crew of people when I'm doing community events, which I love. I guess what I will say with patterns is that the people that are most receptive to doing this work are open, they're curious, they're somewhat frustrated that other coaching methodologies of correct action or trying to take a more intellectual approach is this not producing the results that they want.

[40:09.8] So it's kind of both open and curious. And I've tried all of these other things and promises were made, but I don't feel like I'm different. I'm not making the shifts or the transformation that I want. And I guess the other thing that I would say too is for breakthrough transformation.

[40:30.9] I think a lot of us say that we want it and it's not for the faint of heart. So people really have to be in a state of being open to be slightly dysregulated in order to kind of have that metamorphosis. Right. So it's like the caterpillar goes into its little cocoon and it becomes just like sludge.

[40:50.6] Right? Like people have to be willing to go through the sludge part. And you know, I find not, not a lot of people really want to kind of like make that longer term commitment though. Those that do, you know, like that's what lights me up. I mean I really enjoy working with people that at least in the kind of the one on one coaching work that I'm doing, there's longevity to it in the kind of like shorter term work that I do with leadership teams where it's like maybe six months or a year, like it gets, it's, it's a catalyst, you know, and it gives people enough that it's enough that.

[41:24.1] Where they're a different shape by the end in a way that they're moving towards what they, they long for and how they want to, how they want to show up and be not to become something different. Right. But really to. It's more of an unveiling of, like, the leader that you really are the, like, at the fullest, at, your highest potential.

[41:43.4] Right. But that's scary, right? I mean, we're talking about, at the top of the hour, just kind of like the impact of hiding and needing to cover because we don't feel safe. Right. So there has to be some conditions for this kind of work to happen. So I guess that would be, like, maybe not another pattern, but I would say a prerequisite of, like, you know, if someone's listening to this podcast and it's like, I want to bring this into my team, I would say first, like, let's do some basics, like, what's psychological safety?

[42:10.4] Like, what is trust? Like, because this work is asking people to be vulnerable, with themselves, but also, if we're doing this in a group, to be vulnerable enough with other people where taking interpersonal risks can happen without the fear of negative consequences.

[42:27.2] Like, I'm not going to lose status amongst my colleagues. I'm not going to miss out on that promotion. Hopefully no one's job is, insecure, but that could also be a concern as well. So, yeah, thank you so much for that. And I also love the, the caterpillar into butterfly analogy.

[42:46.8] I actually have that on my LinkedIn header right now. And I think about that sludge part a lot. And it's just like, do you want to be intentional about being in the sludge, or do you want to just, like, live in the sludge and not be intentional? Like, you're in the sludge and it feels bad. Do you want to find a way to get out of the sludge?

[43:02.7] Right. Yeah, it's one of those things, like, you know, in the way that I've been trained through Somatics, it's like. Like, the world is shaping us all the time. We can just be passive and kind of like, just let the sea toss us around. Right. Or we can kind of, like, also recognize, yes, external conditions are happening.

[43:18.9] And, like, I can reclaim my space in a way that I'm also going to intentionally shape myself and, like, in the ways that I can, you know, shape. Shape the world, the immediate world around me. And I find that to be really powerful. Right. So, like, with the sludge, like, we can be intentional while we're in the sludge.

[43:36.3] Exactly. That's how we come become beautiful butterflies. We can't be a beautiful butterfly otherwise. So thank you. Thank you so much for that. And I Want to switch gears a little bit? You know, Felicia and I, we've been dabbling in the. The future's work and thinking about, you know, what's going on today and what's going on in the future.

[43:53.7] But just to start us off, like, what do you think about our industry, the space that we are in, for lack of a better term right now, the DEI industry, does that have a place right now and beyond? Absolutely, absolutely.

[44:09.6] I mean, I was saying this before, right? I mean, like, it may have a rebrand, right. Like we may be. You know, I, I really love Lily Zhang. So we might be talking about the FAIR acronym, which is great, right? It's. It's still cracking the same egg, right.

[44:25.7] Which is like how we're able to work together. And I think as machine learning becomes more advanced, maybe it reaches singularity. Right. Like, there's this polished AI version of the world. Right. And I think as, as we go deeper into that future, I think for many of us, we're going to crave more of that human connection, like to be living and breathing in a body, our own body, and being with other bodies that are imperfect.

[44:53.7] Right. That are kind of like bringing out the things that allow us to feel safe and connected and have our basic needs met. So, I really believe that this work helps to cultivate healthy cultures broadly, certainly in the workplace and beyond.

[45:10.4] And I think the skills that we share with leaders are the skills that help us build peace.

[45:19.1] This might be for a different podcast, but I could see why this work might be attacked in this moment, because it really helps us bridge across our differences. And what I see in the work that I'm leading is people crave that. It's like, how do we make this mix work?

[45:34.9] How do we get to this high level performance where it feels good to show up and we know what our mission is, we know what our team goals are, and it feels good to contribute and that that's valued. And I feel like I can offer out of the box ideas without being laughed out of the room.

[45:52.3] Right. I mean, that's what we want. At least that's what leaders say that they want. Right? But there's all of this. There's a lot that gets in the way, as you all know. So I definitely see this work. There's longevity to it. And like we were talking about, I think before the recording, we've seen a lot of evolution just over the past 10 years.

[46:11.8] So I imagine, this time is hard. I think these next few years will be challenging and I do see in this next decade, this work really evolving in dynamic ways. I feel that in my bones. Yeah, we have seen, I mean again, because our organizational journey is parallel in a lot of ways.

[46:34.0] We've seen so much evolution over the last decade in this particular space and even since 2020 into 2021 and then where we are now, it's just been, it's been wild. And I, you know, we've talked a lot about this on other podcasts and Rachel and I have talked between our.

[46:53.5] How, you like, like who's involved in this work and how are people receptive to it and you know, and you've, I think yourself have shared a little bit about how you've evolved and I'm wondering what, in from your, you know, sort of experience and in your thoughts right now, like, what do you wish that more people understood about what it actually takes to do, to do this kind of work, Whether it's the somatics work or working as a DEI practitioner or doing the belonging, you know, sort of deep dive work that you've been doing.

[47:22.0] What does it actually take to do this kind of work and do it well? You know, the first thing that comes to mind is commitment. And not like commitments like on a piece of paper, you know, this we're going to write out like our statement of the kind of culture that we want, but like a commitment where those words help organize.

[47:40.8] Right and being organized around what matters most, which is hopefully, you know, like trying to build an exceptional culture. Right. For you as a leader, for the people that you lead, for your organization, for the people that you're serving or creating products for.

[47:55.8] Right. Like that it's about the feeling of being connected to something that means more than a 90 day profit margin or whatever the metrics are that show on paper, this business is wildly successful.

[48:15.4] I think that it goes beyond that as we move forward into the future to really do this work is. And not like in a sense of legacy, but in a sense of responsibility for those of us who, you know, like, I'm kind of like at that cusp of Gen X, millennial, so misenial, in this micro generation.

[48:36.4] But it's like, I think for many of us, you know, we're now in leadership positions, we now have the ability to say, you know, like, not that I don't want to be kind of this leader that's only myopic and focused on profits, or I want to be responsible, recognizing that there are external conditions where there are great consequences.

[48:57.6] If we continue to go in that direction where it's profit at all costs, it may cost us our planet, it may cost us our civilization. So these are big existential, crises in my mind. And so to do this work, I mean, I think this work allows us to start to have a more compassionate way of business of kind of surviving in the system.

[49:25.7] I think it takes visionary leaders, I think it takes brave leaders. I think it takes courageous leaders. I mean, there's so many ways that we describe leaders in our work. And that to begin, that sounds huge. And then it might sound like, oh, my God, that's too much work.

[49:42.9] And I would say what matters most to you? I mean, I, I think many of us are connected to families with younger people. And I look at the younger people in my family and it's. I feel that responsibility. So I guess that's what I would say on that topic. And that was probably, maybe more than people wanted to hear.

[50:00.2] But, No, yeah, I was just gonna say I just really appreciate those leaders that are like, yes, I am there. I'm signed up for it. So if you feel that in your bones, yes, you're in the right place with us. Yeah, no, I was gonna say that absolutely was.

[50:15.5] No, that was wonderful. And, and wholeheartedly agree and goodness knows we can have conversation and maybe we have time for it to really get into whole collapse and what that might look like and what's on the other side of it and how we are showing up. And I'm sure that we will get to that in a little bit.

[50:32.7] But before we do that. Yeah, you know, we are, we sort of touched upon this, this before. You know, there's just. There is an understandable amount of fear right now, among transgender, non, binary, gender expansive folks, in the US Today.

[50:51.3] And given that, how do you see that we can support each other during a time when it feels particularly dangerous and targeted just to be yourself? Yeah, that's another big question. I mean, I'll say as a trans man, I feel that fear, pretty consistently.

[51:16.1] And I think what I have found to be the antidote, just on a very micro level, is community and connection, breaking out of isolation, checking in with people, reminding each other, first and foremost, we've always been here, on this planet.

[51:33.6] We go back time immemorial, and we've survived. That's why we're here today. And we're going to survive this. Hopefully we will find ways to thrive through this. Support in general, I think for all of us, we're impacted in many different ways.

[51:51.5] So for trans people, I think of immigrants, particularly brown and black immigrants in the United States, and just, the fear that is very palpable. And I think similarly the support of checking in with people that we know that might be experiencing this world, in different ways, oppression kind of impacts us in different ways.

[52:16.3] But the people in your own network of really checking in, especially after maybe you read something in the news of like, oof, I felt that in my body. Let me check in on my other friends to see what's going on for them. And I also think that. And this is part of my own somatic work of like, my first commitment that I had when I started work with my coach is I'm a commitment to unapologetic trans joy.

[52:42.0] And what that commitment meant to me was, you know, for so much of my life of like trying to make other people comfortable at my own expense, of like censoring parts of myself because I thought it was too much or I would have to explain. And, and that really, really got in the way of having real meaningful connections.

[53:00.7] And so I would say for all of us, we have to find ways of prioritizing joy and remembering we're living, we're in these bodies, we have these five senses to take in as much in as we would like to.

[53:17.6] And yes, the external conditions are very severe and scary and still there's the joy that we can find in the everyday. And so I'm trying that practice. And I recognize saying that maybe some folks are. Maybe you're rolling your eyes or looking at the news and saying, are you serious?

[53:34.0] And yes, it's a both. And I'm serious about that. And I think if we anchor ourselves in our bodies right now and the truth of our existence, that can help us remember our self worth and not let those external conditions erode it.

[53:52.8] Well, Rachel and I are huge fans of what we like to call the improv approach, which is the. Yes. And so we are right there with you.

[54:04.1] And. Yes. And I was just thinking as you were sharing and thank you for sharing. I think it's just, you know, it's barely scratching the surface of so much that we could probably spend the rest of the day just kind of digging into. And obviously we only have a limited amount of time.

[54:20.4] But, as you were sharing, I was thinking so, in, you know, on the side, in addition to this work, I actually work as a city councilor for a very small city in western Massachusetts. And, I was one of the sponsors of a resolution last year, that was specifically to support what we termed the TNGDI community, which stands for transgender, Non, Binary, Gender Diverse and intersex folks, in this area.

[54:49.3] And so we passed that resolution unanimously, which I'm really happy to sort of share, which wasn't that big of a surprise, but still, you never know. And I think what was just kind of coming to my mind as you were sharing was around that, that joy piece of it and how it was so striking to me as I went through that whole process.

[55:09.1] It took us many months. We had a lot of listening sessions with folks. We had a lot of collaborative writing sessions with allies and folks from those communities. And, you know, we're really planning for a lot of attack, to be honest, because we weren't sure how it would be received. And, there really wasn't that much of a pushback or attack on it, which was really great.

[55:27.9] But, I think part of it was to see, and I don't know if joy is exactly the right word, but to see that the, I guess, like, the validation and the, appreciation that, people from these communities and allies and supporters and loved ones and friends and all the people involved and invested were just really appreciative and grateful that, you know, again, it's like, it's such a simple thing, but saying, like, you're here, you exist, we, we recognize your existence and your humanity.

[55:59.0] You know, we support you. You know, we're not going to go after you as, you know, a city employee or, like, police or fire or whatever it might be. And, and honestly, like, the biggest pushback was that people who I think might have not loved this resolution didn't, understand what the TNGDI acronym stood for because they didn't bother to read through the whole thing.

[56:19.2] So actually, that was the biggest issue that came up where people were upset that they hadn't done their own critical reading. But so it's just kind of, you know, percolating in my mind because I think it is so, so important, especially in these times. And I think it can be hard. Right? Like, I know for me, I'm not a member of these communities, but I know that when we talk about things like, you know, lean into the joy, or like, we have to balance the, you know, terrible stuff with the joy, it can feel sometimes a bit disingenuous or like, well, I'm celebrating, but I know there's still so much suffering out there in other places and other communities.

[56:52.9] So I just, I guess I don't really have a question out of that, but just all these thoughts are, have been percolating as you were sharing. And I think it's an important point to make. So thank you for sharing what you did. I'm so happy that you shared that. And I just want to underscore how important, the role that we can all be allies at times, at different times we may need allies for different reasons.

[57:14.7] And I just want to thank you for your allyship to make sure that that was passed for the communities, I would just say gender diverse communities. For all that you're naming in that bill to signal this isn't going to magically make anything better necessarily at what's happening at the federal level.

[57:35.7] And we've got your back and these are the ways that we're tangibly showing up. That brings the community together around connection for the people that didn't understand what those terms mean. It raises awareness, it starts positive conversations and just like drowns out the misinformation and the lies that are being told about trans, non, binary, gender diverse intersex communities where it's really easy to scapegoat a very small population of people and point the finger to say these people have so much power and that's why your life sucks.

[58:11.7] And We know that that's not true. But it's just, it's very, The damage that we're seeing. The damage, right. So for, for any leader, especially an elected position, to do what you did, it's huge. So I just want to thank you for that. And I'm so glad that you shared that.

[58:27.4] Thank you. I appreciate that. And I think it's so important, especially you know, again, we're recording this on the 18th of February and there's just been a series of shootings at Providence. Ice rink. And you know, and we're seeing the trans community being thrust into the spotlight.

[58:43.8] And again, it's this whole dynamic of like, you know, and like we know this right in our work that we can't expect one person to represent their entire identity group. But that is what happens, especially when things are thrust into the news and you know, even in a workplace environment.

[58:59.2] Right. Like the classic, oh, you're building the blank. You know, tell us, what does your group need or how do people think? Right. It's just, it's so prevalent still even in today's world. And so I think it's just a good reminder that. And to your point around, like, the allyship of it all. And I think that the work that you're doing with these leadership teams are probably.

[59:19.0] It might not be named as such, but it's probably like leaning into a little bit of this as well. To your points that you were making earlier around, like, you know, think about how it feels for someone else who might not be in the same spot as you, but they do. They feel that sense of belonging, for example, and then trying to, like, put yourself in someone else's shoes.

[59:36.9] I know we have just a little bit of time left. Rachel, do you want to ask. I think it's our final question, which I know is one of your favorites. It's always. It's always my favorite. I want to talk about the future because it is so uncertain and there is so much happening.

[59:53.2] And, you know, we are, in what we've talked about these polycrypts crises, right? Like, just so much is happening. And we are at a point which I think is potentially one of the most significant points in human history, possibly depending on how you think about things.

[60:10.2] So given this, and also given the very specific nature of the work that we do is we focus on workplace. Just curious to know your thoughts on, like, how do you see the future of work, work evolving, given everything that's happening right now? Yeah, well, that's a big question to end on, and I appreciate it.

[60:29.6] Sure is. On the podcast I have, it's Imagine Belonging. So it's like, what's your imagination for the future? And I, you know, I think kind of going back to something that we were talking about earlier. This. This, like, craving, for humanity, craving for kind of being connected with each other.

[60:48.2] And I. And I see more of that happening to grapple with these existential crises that we talked about. And that, that's something that gives me a lot of hope for where we're going.

[61:03.6] Right? And I think that with the rise of AI, I think there's maybe a fraction of people that hope that the technology that kind of doesn't exist yet will solve all of the challenges. Right? And we know that it's going to come from our solutions.

[61:21.4] And so, I think it will get more challenging first before we start to look at maybe unlikely leaders, right? Like the folks that, you know, we could probably. Like, maybe it's like the DEI folks, right?

[61:38.2] Like those of us that are just so skilled at being able to connect across differences and bring people together and to create conditions of safety and Trust so we can get to the real, real issues at hand. I see the rise of what Stacey Abrams talks about as minority leadership, people that have often been underestimated and excluded as having the wisdom right now for these times.

[62:03.0] And I hope that extends to indigenous wisdom of how to be good stewards of this planet. So I really feel that, and I am committed to trying to bring that vision into the world actively.

[62:19.1] And I know you all are as well. That's why I love the spaces that we're in. Because going back to that butterfly analogy, if you ever watch butterflies in a meadow, they often lift each other up when they're just kind of floating across a beautiful summer day. And I feel like that's us.

[62:36.7] And it's really important for us to name those visions when it's so easy to go to the doom and gloom. Gloom. Right. And so I'm, grateful that you all have this podcast and we're able to have these conversations to put these kind of manifestations for the future out there.

[62:53.6] So it's a good question and I, hope I did it justice. You absolutely did. And you, very much. We are, in relation to all of that. That is how we view it as well. It's so important to think about a positive future, to co create it.

[63:12.5] So does that mean you're running for, for, for office? Is this what I'm hearing? Is this. Are we announcing your candidacy right now? No, but Felicia, I might, I might talk with you about the realities of, of your, your, Your other gig, which sounds happy to chat, has definitely, led me to think about.

[63:29.9] Oh, I actually don't want to do XYZ anymore. But yes, offline Parks and Rec was too real. It was actually a documentary. It was not fiction. It 100% was a documentary. Well, Rhodes, thank you. First of all, thank you so much.

[63:45.5] If people want to learn more about you, what's going on, the Somatics work, all that good stuff. How can people find you on in the world? Yeah, the best, the best place to find me is just Rhodes perry.com. and I have, I have a new book coming out in the fall called Road Slash Travel, not spelled like my name.

[64:04.4] But it is about, as part memoir and as a part methodology guide for leaders to facilitate real transformation. And I'm really excited about it because if people are familiar with the artist way, it's structured in a very similar way. So it's 12 chapters and it's meant to be practiced over the course of 12 weeks, so a whole season, like 90 days.

[64:28.4] And I'm tentatively planning a book tour that will hit the Northeast. So I love. You know, I'd love to keep us posted. We'll keep me posted. Rachel's on the west coast, but if you make it out to the west coast, that's going to happen, too. Excellent. Yeah. Come out to Southern California. I'll be here. Totally.

[64:44.0] Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you very much for having me. This was a great conversation. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much, Rhodes.

[64:56.8] Oh, we did it. Thank you so much, Rhodes. It's been such a pleasure to chat and connect with you and for all our listeners. We hope you enjoyed listening to the interview as. As much as we enjoyed the conversation. Yes. Thank you so much for listening. And please, before you do anything else, do not forget to rate, share and subscribe.

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