Advocating for Reproductive Justice with MaryRose Mazzola

0:00:07 - Rachel Murray Well, hello and welcome to the she Geeks Out podcast, where we geek out about workplace inclusion and talk with brilliant humans doing great work, making the world a better and brighter place. I'm Rachel.

0:00:19 - Felicia Jadczak And I'm Felicia so for today's episode. We're so excited to welcome Mary Rose Mazzola to the podcast. Mary Rose is a longtime friend and colleague and we first met her back in 2017 when she was the executive director of the Boston Women's Workforce Council. She's had quite the career as an attorney, a public policy expert and a political professional with a wealth of legal, legislative, research and campaign experience. She's got a long resume, so let me get into this. She is currently the Chief External Affairs Officer at Planned Parenthood League of Massachusetts and the Executive Director of the Planned Parenthood Advocacy Fund of Massachusetts. She is also an adjunct lecturer in public policy at the Harvard Kennedy School and is the Executive Director of the 617 Rocks Foundation. I had to take a breath there. It is a lot we talk about most of it, not all of it but really excited to chat with Mary Rose.

0:01:13 - Rachel Murray But before we do that, yes, before we do that, we have other things to discuss, but I also just want to chime in and say I am super excited about the conversation with Mary Rose. It was seriously just like a ton of knowledge and inspiration and a really important conversation for our times. Before we get into that important conversation, we got our own important conversation. To get into how many important conversations? It's an important time we're living history. It's so exciting. It's an important time we're living history. It's so exciting. So one of the things that we were chatting about before we hit the record button is the Gallup workplace report came out on employee engagement and you know it sparked a lot of interesting sort of thoughts and conversation and I know, felicia, you were just on a webinar and you had some questions and thoughts. I thought we could maybe get into it a little bit.

0:02:05 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, sure, I mean, you know me, I love my research and data, and part of that I do think like, in all honesty, I do think that part of being a professional, especially in our line of work, is you have to stay on top of your data because the needle moves so quickly, and I think, if nothing else, the last five years has shown us that we just cannot rely on outdated research anymore. That's not to say that there aren't amazing research studies that are old, that still hold true, but I feel like in this age of AI, we have to just be more and more critical about what the sources we're using are. So, anyway, the Gallup report was interesting because the sort of overall takeaway was that employee engagement is down.

0:02:46 - Rachel Murray Shocker and I can throw out some numbers if you'd like. Yes, I would love to have some numbers thrown in. Speaking of data, we are geeks after all, that is true. So global employee so this was a really cool report because it really focused on all the countries, not just us US folks. So global employee engagement fell to 21% in 2024. Global manager engagement specifically fell from 30% to 27%. So it didn't start off particularly high, but it certainly did not get any better. Engagement dropped five points for managers under 35, and female manager engagement plummeted by seven points. And again, these are already kind of low numbers, so it's not a great starting point. So just wanted to sort of reflect on that for a little bit.

0:03:35 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, I think the manager piece is really important and also I don't know what the right word is, I guess like disappointing maybe to see. Because if you are someone who understands corporate work life at all, you understand that managers are really sort of like the keystone of it all, because we talk a lot about, you know, bottom up and top down, but the middle layer is the manager layer and that's where it really does make or break. So if you have an amazing manager, you will probably want to stay longer, you'll be more engaged, you'll be more excited about work, you'll feel more supported. All the things that we know are the benefits of having a really good person who's behind you and leading you and guiding you. If your manager is not in it, if they're disengaged, if they don't care, if they don't believe in the mission or values or the work or you or anything like that, then that's going to really influence your experience. And so I think, seeing that the managers were this sort of pocket of stakeholders where it really we're seeing this loss in engagement points, and especially for women managers as well.

And the age is really interesting too, actually the under 35. Interesting too, actually the under 35. I think it just speaks to the fact that managers are in this really tough position because, I mean, just speaking from personal experience, I feel like the last five years, we both have been managers ourselves and I feel like, for me personally, I've had to not just lead and manage from a sort of like day-to-day, normal quote-unquote perspective, but also basically be like a therapist and really lean into the idea of like, how do you hold space and how do you support and most managers aren't trained for that and it's especially extra difficult when you're also going through stuff yourself and then you're also trying to help your teammates or the people that you're leading. Well, don't forget about managing up as well, and managing up Absolutely. So there's just. I mean there's probably a million other things we can throw in there. So you know, I mean I feel for, I feel for managers, I really feel for them and I think that you know you and I talk a lot about just like things like work-life balance and what are we doing in this day and age and how do you show up to work when it feels like the world is burning and all the things that are going on, especially for us living in the United States in 2025? And you know it's a challenging time to be working right now, and I think that what we're seeing with this report and obviously the report is, I think, looking back on 2024 data, but it still holds super true and I only imagine that it's going to get worse is that we really need to provide everybody, but especially folks who are in these like kind of dual support system roles support and guidance and care and maybe it's training, but also just understanding of the really complex situation that a lot of people are in.

Before we hit record, I was telling you about a webinar that I just attended on psychological safety, and so it was for a specific identity group, but I think, in general, psychological safety, like the pros and cons, hold true for basically everybody, no matter what your identities are. And I was reflecting because one of the things that I mean and I teach this too around psychological safety and one of the aspects of it, is that people who feel psychologically safe within their team will stay longer, and so it's long been tied to this idea of retention, and so if you have a team that feels supported, that feels secure, that feels safe, that feels like they can bring up things, then that means your team is going to probably stay with you all longer, because why would they leave? They have a good thing going. So in the past, what we've seen is that when you have teams where there's high levels of people leaving, high levels of attrition, psychological safety is not always the reason, but it's definitely it's a very key place to look at if you're having issues.

Now, the job market is so wild and I mean it's all over the place, right. So I mean I definitely can think of examples where people are looking for work and they get hired immediately, and I also know people who've been looking for literally years and are like running out of money because they cannot find jobs. And then we have AI, we have job postings that may not be fake. There's just like it's truly the Wild West out there, and I think overall, we can agree that job hunting in this market is really really tough and complicated, and so I was reflecting on the fact that I wonder if more people who might have immediately gone to like job hopping if they didn't feel psychologically safe in the past are choosing now to stay because they have a guaranteed job, they have a salary, they have the security, as opposed to trying to leave in this really uncertain time, where it really is not a job seeker's market at all, and so I can only think about how that's impacting some of these numbers that we're seeing out of the Gallup report and other research as well, where the engagement is down and I'm like, well, yeah, maybe it's because people don't like where they're working and they would leave, but they're stuck there, and maybe it's because people are just really struggling and I mean it's not.

Maybe I know that people are struggling, it's not, maybe I know that people are struggling. So I think it's good to have data to back up our assumptions, but it also doesn't mean that it makes you feel good when you unpack it, because it's kind of a little depressing.

0:08:52 - Rachel Murray Yeah, it's not a great time to be working for the man, which is largely what people are doing If they can.

That's the goal, which is wild, and we were talking a little bit about it too.

I mean, obviously, we've seen such a shift since the beginning of COVID as far as people being much more vocal about their understanding of their role in corporate America. I think that has become just. There's just been this clarity, and I think that while there has been this clarity, it has always been the reality for as long as we've had this industrialized system of work and where there is this power dynamic, where there is this struggle, where is this understanding of we have to do the thing, we have to do the thing, we have to work in order to live, in order to pay our bills, et cetera, et cetera. And I think, with this growing awareness, people are questioning why is this the system? What is this about? And then we can certainly get into AI, which I'm sure we will do again in the future. I think we have and I'm sure we will get into it in the future, but that plays into it too. How is this all going to transpire, knowing that, you know, robots could potentially be taking over our jobs?

0:10:08 - Felicia Jadczak Well, and it's happening, right. I mean so Shopify, duolingo, and now Fiverr is the newest company that's just basically sent out announcements to their community and their people, basically being like AI is taking your jobs. So I mean, it's not funny, but it is happening. And I'm thinking about in terms of our podcast we did a couple years ago. We had a season that was all focused on the future of work, right, and we probably should revisit this whole concept.

It's so outdated at this point it's not even that long ago about how we're really in this. I mean you've said this to me the other day like we're in this time where everything is upended and what we knew is true in the past is no longer going to be true. And the robot takeover is, like you know, it's kind of a joke, but it's also actually real. And we're in this moment of transformation and I don't really know what's going to happen.

And I'm also thinking about, historically, sectors and jobs that were seen as like guaranteed proof against anything, right, federal government jobs that was sort of like the holy grail, right, Like you get in and you're set for life. Like it's hard to get in, you have to go through all the background checks and it's. You know the jobs don't come up all the time, but you get in and you're in there. And now that's not true anymore in the US, like all these people are laid off, whole departments and divisions are gone. It's no guarantee People are getting fired and then rehired, it's just, it's so wild. And so what does that even do? Not just in terms of like how many people are looking for jobs, but just sort of the psyche of how we think about work and what work is to your point.

0:11:48 - Rachel Murray And well, and tech jobs are another. You know, they're supposed to be the safe ones, right? Like, oh, you get a computer science degree, engineering degree, you are set for life.

And now it's like, ooh, maybe I should have gone into a vocation like plumbing electricity like something else that's more manual skills based, I'm sure all playing into this, and I will also note that you know, while I know that US obvious is our focus, this is obviously a problem around the world and there are actually other countries that are more advanced than we are in AI and robotics. So there's a transformation happening everywhere and I think that you know a lot of the reactions we're seeing politically too are in relation to this, and it's just, it's a really interesting time to reflect on how this is all going to work out and it's really, I think, important for us all to continue to have the conversation, even if we don't have the answers right, Like it's going to happen. So it's good for us to sort of imagine what some of the possibilities are and do what we can do to shape what the future could look like. Even if it feels like we only have a teeny tiny role in it, it still matters.

0:12:57 - Felicia Jadczak It does still matter and I agree with you Like I think it's better to be aware, even if we can't control it, versus not like just ignoring it and then having the world literally be rewritten around us. I've also been thinking a lot about. I'm not going to be able to paraphrase the or to be able to quote it directly, but I'm going to paraphrase a quote from James Baldwin, where he was asked about, you know, his dream job, and I think he answered that he does not dream of labor. He said I don't. And I've been answered that he does not dream of labor. He said I don't.

And I've been thinking so much about that because, you know, for me it really requires a rewriting of how I think about work myself, because I grew up thinking, oh, my dream job. And I'm like now that I'm in my 40s and I'm in all, everything that we just talked about is happening. You know, like, yeah, why are we dreaming of work? Like why can't the robots do the work and we just be able to like all live full, happy, fulfilled lives?

0:13:52 - Rachel Murray Yeah, and it might look like quote unquote work. But what is work?

0:13:56 - Felicia Jadczak right, it is about what is work, yeah.

0:13:58 - Rachel Murray Yeah, is it this sort of like traditional view, or can we evolve our thinking and having work be something that's meaningful and who knows? Look, I'm in an optimistic place today, so I'm going to go with. You know it's going to be okay. We're going to live in a lovely utopian society once things happen.

0:14:20 - Felicia Jadczak All right, I guess I'll take that. Once things happen, we will be great yeah.

0:14:25 - Rachel Murray It's going to put that energy out there. Well, I'm glad that we could end this conversation on a positive note, because we should have a sticker warning that our conversation with Mary Rose, I know, but you know, like you said, even after we've recorded that we're like that was kind of depressing.

0:14:40 - Felicia Jadczak But also to your point, I firmly believe in the power of conversation and connection. As women and strong people having discussions around tough topics, it's important, it really is, and lifting.

0:14:55 - Rachel Murray It really is, and as long as we stay in community, we're going to be all right yeah.

0:15:01 - Felicia Jadczak All right? Well, let's let Mary Rose talk a little bit more about her views on things. So we're going to welcome Mary Rose to the show.

0:15:08 - Rachel Murray Yay, yay.

0:15:11 - Felicia Jadczak All right, Hello and welcome, Mary Rose. We are so excited to have you here. Thank you for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. So we have tons of questions to get into. There is probably a million things we could talk about. We only have a limited amount of time, so we're just going to dive right on in. We have known you for a long time. I think 2017 is when we first met you. You were the executive director of the Boston Women's Workforce Council at that point. You have a ridiculously impressive resume and you've had quite the career. It spans law, public policy, politics, and now you have multiple current roles, so I'm just going to list them off really quickly. So you're the chief external affairs officer at Planned Parenthood League of Massachusetts and you're the executive director of the Planned Parenthood Advocacy Fund of Massachusetts, in addition to Smothered Stuff, which we'll talk about in just a minute. But you've basically worked at this intersection of policy advocacy gender equity for many years, and so what originally drew you to this work, writ large.

0:16:08 - MaryRose Mazzola Yes, it's been a journey, and the three of us go back a long way too. So for me it's just probably something that a lot of people can relate to, which is moving through the world as a woman, as a girl and then a woman, and just seeing you know different examples of inequity and then finally putting the pieces together that it's part of a larger system, right, that it is actually patriarchy. It's not just. These things keep happening to me and other women in my life. I think that was really the motivating factor.

My grandmother passed away from ovarian cancer when I was in middle school and that's a disease that we don't scan for. People think pap smears cover it and they don't. She had no symptoms until she was stage three. I did a lot of Title IX campus sexual assault organizing so I had friends who were assaulted on campus and had no access to their rights or didn't know how to access their rights on campus, and I had people close to me really need abortion care while they were in their early 20s and they went to the Planned Parenthood I now work at. But even in a place like Massachusetts they had to overcome financial barriers and walk through protesters outside of the clinic to access their health care. So for me it was just kind of the compilation of lived experiences of myself and others that led me to want to work in this space.

0:17:17 - Rachel Murray Wow. Also, I cannot believe that I am 49 years young and I did not realize that ovarian cancer is not.

0:17:26 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, Same, by the way. Okay, that actually makes me feel better. I was like am I the only one? I was like what? We can literally understand that I'm making notes in the back of my mind. I'm like should I get checked for ovarian cancer? Probably.

0:17:40 - Rachel Murray I'm like literally like we could end this episode right now, because I feel like we've gotten some really important knowledge that has been shared.

0:17:45 - Felicia Jadczak It was a major PSA. Ask your guy. Now you know.

0:17:48 - Rachel Murray Wow, seriously, yeah, psa hashtag. Ask your guy now. Well, now we have the name of the episode, so that's great. So, marius, thank you so much. So you know it's obviously it's a wild time. We're actually recording this on May 2nd, friday May 2nd, and there are just so many challenges that are happening right now. I think both sort of that have been in the press and I'm sure, things that have not been covered because there's just so much to cover. And how do you cover all of the madness? So, with such an attack on reproductive rights and reproductive freedom, how do you and your team, how do you decide where to focus the efforts?

0:18:25 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah, it's a great question.

The day after the presidential election in November, I met with my entire team and read a quote I believe it's Brittany Pacchetti about you can only focus on so much to be effective.

And this idea of do your work, do it well, don't do someone else's work, don't make someone else do your work and that's really what's been centering me in general, but especially since November November of we are, you know, have this small area of control and it's up to us to make the best outcomes over those issues and trust that people who are experts and leaders in their other fields are going to cover those issues.

And so what that means for me is that I'm laser focused on sexual and reproductive health care in Massachusetts, and that's obviously important for folks in Massachusetts. But it's also important because we know we have a lot of people traveling to us. We've seen a 37 percent increase in out-of-state patients coming for abortion care or receiving abortion care via telehealth since the Dobbs decision, and because Massachusetts is a leader for the country in so many ways. We set the tone on health care and public policy and civil rights in many ways a tone on health care and public policy and civil rights in many ways, and so I think that, well, it's kind of easy to say I'm drawing my line at the place that I live, the place that I work. I think it's also impactful because we know Massachusetts has a larger reach.

0:19:45 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, it's so true, and I think that point about it's not only important for us who live in Massachusetts, but also for people who are looking to Massachusetts to lead and who are looking to come to Massachusetts for however many different reasons.

I was just at a. The Massachusetts LGBT chamber has a Western Mass outbranch, and so I was at a meeting the other day and there were a few realtors there who work in Western Mass and in Vermont as well Southern Vermont and they were saying that they've seen massive increases in mostly LGBT folks who are looking to move to Massachusetts specifically for the protections that they believe the state will have for them and that it does have. And obviously that's not exactly 100% correlated, but it's all part of the same idea that we can be this leader and this stake in the ground there. But being a leader doesn't mean that it's easy, and so when we're talking about advocating for reproductive justice in particular, it really feels like it's just an uphill battle and we're just the struggle is real right. So this is probably a very tough question these days to ask you, so I apologize in advance, but how can we keep going when we hit setbacks, especially when it feels like we're only hitting setbacks and we're not getting those wins that we really need.

0:20:58 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah, I think what I like to remind folks of is that a lot of this policy is incremental, so that's been historically true. Even Roe v Wade obviously big step forward, but immediately a lot of states, including Massachusetts, passed restrictions to caveat and to limit the rights of Roe, and so it's not just a new battle. It's always been one step forward, two steps back or vice versa. And I think that's true right now too, where if you're in a state, including a blue state like Massachusetts, there's still incremental gains to be had. And I think focusing on those small steps forward can be really helpful, even as there's push nationally to move backwards.

So in Massachusetts that looks like one. How can we make sure that we're keeping our doors open and our services affordable to everyone, both Massachusetts residents and folks traveling here? Because we know that there are already access issues before any of these national changes, and now we're facing funding threats from the federal government. So I think the access piece, that funding piece, is an important thing, that there's different ways to control that and to improve that, even as national trends are moving in a certain direction. And then I think the other piece is how can we make sure that Massachusetts is getting rid of all existing barriers, all remaining barriers, and trying to make protections for providers and patients as much as possible. And so that's where we see.

You know, an update to the SHIELD law was just filed that Planned Parenthood helped work on. That also includes gender-affirming care, since we know that's also under attack. Looking at how we can have certain services, like IUD sedation, covered by insurance. So there's kind of these small battles that I think are helpful to ground ourselves in, because that's actually what's going to make a difference in the long term, especially in states like Massachusetts, where there's an appetite to work on these things. But we can only do so much, and so that's how my team stays focused is we have these, you know, small, more achievable goals as we also fight for liberation more broadly of small, more achievable goals as we also fight for liberation more broadly.

0:23:01 - Rachel Murray And I have an unsanctioned question so you can tell me if this is not something you feel comfortable talking about, but I maybe, like I want to say it was, maybe it was right. After the Dobbs decision came down and Obama went on Pod Save America and they were like we can't believe and it's all Ruth Bader Ginsburg's fault and like you know the whole thing, and he said well, maybe we shouldn't have had this be decided by like nine people. This maybe should have been something that was legislated. And I think about these decisions that are being made and how you all as an organization are trying to fight these battles, both legislatively and then also like trying to get these laws passed in Congress you know the justice system as well as like getting them passed in Congress. That just seems like such a challenge. Are there like? Is there like a focus? Is there a way to even think about this from, like how to fight it both, I guess, on a macro level as well as individually?

0:23:59 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah, I could talk about this all day. In general, I think there was such an over-reliance on Roe and on Supreme Court precedent that we just didn't build the other pieces of the puzzle, and so I think that unfortunately it took Dobbs. But Dobbs has been a wake-up call for not just folks in the movement, who I think already knew this and believe this, but folks more broadly who support reproductive rights, to say we have to do everything we can across different modalities to make sure we're protecting our rights. So we've seen in recent years ballot initiatives like direct grassroots organizing to get reproductive rights codified into state constitutions or to push back against restrictions on abortion rights. We've seen states like Massachusetts take their old laws off the books that still criminalized abortion, hadn't been enforced in you know 100 years, but were still technically on the books to say we're not going to have any tool left for you to harm people or to remove this way to access care. And so I think certainly there's got to be movement across the board.

I mean, even on the anti-choice side we have the Federalist Society. We're going into elite law schools for decades and training people on other issues. But it's always been a litmus test to say how do you feel about abortion? That's been a main focus of the Federalist Society and then to get people through elite law schools and clerkships and on the bench as judges, and now we have a majority of the Supreme Court that originated in the Federalist Society. So we need to be strategic, we need to be thinking across all of those elements.

I think it kind of returns to the idea of you know, do what you have power over and do what you're good at, and so for me and my team in Massachusetts, this largely looks like legislation and you know grassroots organizing and community outreach. So, again, trying to get rid of the remaining barriers on the books, expand protections for both patients and providers and then make sure that folks in community actually know about us, know how they can get their care paid for, how to get to us. So that's what we're doing. But certainly if you're in a state like Kansas, then you're probably much more focused on long-term grassroots organizing. If you're in a state that elects judges, like Wisconsin, then you're going to be thinking about candidates and building campaigns there. So I think it really is a return to like what do you have control over, what are you good at, because we need everyone right now.

0:26:19 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, I love on-sanction questions. Thanks for answering, but I have a sanction question next. But it fits in really nicely with what you were just saying around the grassroots aspect of things, because one of the ways that just sort of like your everyday person has reacted to a lot of these abortion bans has been by setting up what I've seen referred to as auntie networks or auntie networks, depending on how you pronounce aunt or aunt, and so, if anyone's not familiar, these are basically groups where people who are across America can connect with other folks who need assistance with any kind of support relating to abortions, getting abortions, whatnot. And so you know, in today's world where we're seeing doctors being threatened with prosecution for assisting in abortions, what are you seeing as the real impact of these abortion bans on everyday individuals, and do the grassroots efforts help at all, or does it distract from the kind of work that you were just mentioning?

0:27:12 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah, it's a great question. I think the biggest impact for, you know, people's day-to-day lives is that there's a chilling effect on accessing your care, even the day that the Dobbs decision draft leaked. So you know, three years ago we had patients calling that day to say I have my appointment tomorrow, is it still available? And that's because the average person isn't steeped in Supreme Court precedent, isn't following the news every day, they don't have time for that, and so you just hear some big national story that the right to abortion is gone and you don't know how that impacts your life, and so I think that chilling effect across the board is the number one takeaway. But certainly that manifests in different ways. So, you know, mainly, like you mentioned, these abortion bans are targeting the healthcare providers who provide that care. I work with a lot of doctors day to day. I work above the clinic in Boston, and so I feel lucky to work with people who are so brave who, before they even decided to join this field, knew they would be threatened every day, whether that's people protesting them, mailing things to their houses, yelling at them in public, and also you know, of course, the legal and other threats to their careers. So I think these are people who are in it, who understand what the fight is. They shouldn't have to have that fight, but they're ready for it.

I think what we've actually seen with some of these bans is that it's creating this level of institutional risk assessment.

That's really changing behavior, and so oftentimes it'll be, for example, a hospital and their general counsel and their board deciding are we going to run the risk of continuing, for example, to provide care in a state that has a ban, but with exceptions, and it's hard to parse on purpose what those exceptions are.

And that's where you really have an institutional risk assessment With the you know, the auntie networks, the different abortion funds, other informal ways that people are getting the care. That's hugely helpful because even before all these restrictions there was an access issue just people getting to a place where they can get care because of abortion deserts or being able to afford care, have child care for their children while they're going to get the health care. So always really helpful. I think what's interesting is that anti-choice folks are catching on to that, and now some of these laws are actually targeting the helpers too. They're targeting people who help, pay for abortions or, you know, drive you across state to access care. So, again, I think that the big impact is the chilling effect, and that's the goal, whether they're targeting providers, you know friends sometimes the pregnant person themselves.

0:29:31 - Felicia Jadczak I know it's so depressing, but I was just going to say I've seen so many posts over the last several years, especially from, you know, random, everyday people being like oh, if you want to come hiking, quote, unquote or come camping, blah, blah, blah. Many people out there who care and who want to support. And, on the other hand, I'm like this is leaving a digital trace where, if you ever get in trouble, it's so obvious what you're talking about. So I always just wondered about that, like how helpful is it? And I actually don't even know, like if people use those posts or those networks at all, and it's. I mean, we go down this rabbit hole. But it's also dangerous because these are just random people and anyone could be posting and you don't even know if you can trust them or not.

0:30:18 - MaryRose Mazzola No, exactly, and I think, again, that's an intention of all this policymaking is to create this landscape of like chaos and confusion, where we're relying on individuals to help each other instead of having systems set up to provide what is normal common health care. So, absolutely, and yeah, I think what we you know, what I think people in the movement think about is where are anti-choice government officials, candidates, et cetera, going to really invest resources? So you'd hope that it's not worth their time to go after you know someone who's offering to help their kids, you know their friend's kid, or something like that. But certainly, like any of that bears risk. But what we're really seeing, the impact is, like, you know, large hospital systems, clinics, like Planned Parenthood, where we have a big target on our backs and that's who they're going to come after first.

0:31:04 - Rachel Murray Blurg Mary Rose blurg.

0:31:09 - MaryRose Mazzola Not to bring down the vibe. Sorry, I know I'm like well, it's hard to be.

0:31:13 - Rachel Murray This is a real tough one. We're going to have to end on some like happy self-care things.

0:31:17 - MaryRose Mazzola at the end I'll talk about my daughter and my dog at the end, if you'd like.

0:31:21 - Rachel Murray I love that. Well, let's just like well, what's your daughter and dog's names right now? My daughter is Mia and my dog is Elsie, and they are frenemies, so I love that for both of them and I'm glad that you clarified, because I wouldn't have been able to tell which one was your daughter and which one was your dog.

0:31:36 - MaryRose Mazzola I know, when I was naming my dog, I was like am I sure? I don't want to name a future child Elsie, but you know here we are.

0:31:42 - Felicia Jadczak I love that they're frenemies. I can't wait to learn more about that when we get to this.

0:31:45 - Rachel Murray Yeah, it's a fun dynamic I want to talk a little bit about what you would say. Oh, this is a little positive too. It's just like what can employers do? I mean, there's a lot of power that companies have, even though they are being terrible at displaying their power in the moment. But let's say, if any of them did decide to actually leverage their power for good and justice, how would you say they could be of most assistance at this time?

0:32:16 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah, great question. I think there's both internal and external things that companies can do. So, obviously, you know we all got connected via the Boston Women's Workforce Council, this public-private partnership that focuses on gender and racial pay equity, and that was an example of companies both changing internal policies to enhance pay equity and also making this public statement of this. Is the kind of company that we are, and I think that's similar when we're talking about reproductive rights. There's internal policies you can change.

You know I've had friends who've actually, because of personal experiences, been instrumental in changing their company's leave policy to include miscarriage management, for example. You know, maybe their parental leave policy includes that kind of care. So I think there's things that are you know, some of the leave policies certainly partnering with an insurance company to provide insurance to your employees that's going to cover different types of care. You know some things are mandated in Massachusetts but, for example, we now offer sedation for IUD insertion Huge demand from patients to do so. Very few insurance plans cover that, and so I think that's a lens that companies can bring when they're deciding what kind of benefits they're going to offer their employees.

But then, of course, externally, I think just putting their flag down on saying we are a pro-reproductive freedom, reproductive justice organization and you see coalitions like we mentioned, like the Boston Women's Workforce Council, but even a few years ago, the yes on three question for trans rights in Massachusetts, there was a huge element of that. That was the progressive business community that I think generally is seen as more like small C, conservative, more risk averse. So it can be extra helpful when you're not just hearing from advocates like myself but you're also hearing from companies that they care about this issue and they should, because we know it's also a workforce issue. It's a way to attract and retain talent, is having good health care and also having a state with good policies on this issue. So I think there's both those internal and external markers that companies can put out there.

0:34:19 - Rachel Murray So see, that's positive. Yeah, there we go.

0:34:23 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, I have a follow-up question for that actually, and you don't have to name names specifically but are you seeing companies that are putting their stakes down, their flags down right now around these issues or not? And I'm just curious because I feel like for me personally, as someone who's not as in this specific space as you are, of course, I can't think off the top of my head, but you probably are much more aware than I am.

0:34:47 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah, I mean, I think there's not some prominent examples nationally in a way that I think there should be right. I think we should hear from more major companies. I think it's similar to whenever it's Pride Month and all these companies change their logos to rainbow and then you're checking their campaign finance data to be like who are you donating to? Because that matters too. So, yeah, frankly, I wish there were more national leaders on it. Here in Massachusetts, we are really lucky that the business community, I think, is supportive, if not always really vocal, on this issue.

At Planned Parenthood, we've actually created a corporate membership program where companies can participate. They're either, you know, donating or doing in-kind donations. Oftentimes we start with our vendors. We say, hey, obviously you're willing to work with us if you really care about these issues. You know, do you want to put that down as a value that you have? And so we're going to start like a shop repro brand to get people to say you know, not only are they helping us, but now we should help them. You should know that these are companies that care about these issues and you should support them, especially local businesses. So stay tuned on that.

0:35:46 - Felicia Jadczak That's amazing. I'm definitely going to be keeping an eye out for that. Let's switch gears a little bit. I mean, we're still going to be playing in the same sandbox, but you are also a professor, which I don't know how you have time for everything. But one of the courses that you're currently teaching at Harvard Kennedy School no big deal is on reproductive rights, politics, and policy Sounds really interesting. I wish I was in it, but I'm curious. What do you think is the sort of like forward-looking vision for whether or not we can maintain reproductive freedom in today's America?

0:36:17 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah, yeah, I love this course. It's pretty new. It only started last year and it actually started because when I was there as a student, I had a professor who I loved, who's been a mentor to me, and she advocated for the inclusion of this course. She said how can we be at a policy school not talking about abortion in the year 2023 at the time? And so it's just an example of that network and women helping women to talk about these issues. So it's a great class. I love teaching it, even though it's a little dark.

I think what I tend to focus on thematically with where this is going, where this issue is going is that it's really a battle in the states right now. And, of course, if you kind of read the language of the Dobbs decision, it's saying we are returning the decision to the elected representatives of the people, and that's been largely interpreted to say we're sending it back to the states, and that is how it's played out in the three years since Dobbs. But our elected representatives are also Congress and so I think there is a lot of ways maybe not right now at this Congress, but a lot of ways in general that we can pursue reproductive freedom going forward. So certainly I see this battle happening in the states. Like I mentioned, there are states like Massachusetts, california, new York, illinois that can really be boosting actual resource support for these issues, this type of health care, and also making sure that they are changing laws. For example, in Massachusetts, we still have a requirement for young people 15 and younger to get their parents permission to get an abortion or to go to court, and we know that that has a disproportionate impact on young people of color and young people from poor and low-income families, and so that's something that you know here in Massachusetts we can still work on, and that's where we're going to be preserving and expanding the right to abortion and other sexual and reproductive health care going forward.

But I think that there is a chance again not with this Congress, but, you know, check in with me at the midterms of whether we can do something at the federal level, and maybe it is not codifying a right to abortion via statute, but it could be repealing the Hyde Amendment, which bans use of Medicaid funds for abortion, or it could be something that is still really needed but maybe considered more of a compromise, like investing in maternal health care or sex education. So I think that right now there's definitely a focus on, especially in blue and purple states, where can we move the needle? But I'm hopeful that, going forward, like we talked about, we are looking across the different avenues of how we can create and protect these rights and we're taking advantage of that.

0:38:42 - Rachel Murray Is Planned Parenthood working to have us all be all of us blue states, be a part of Canada?

0:38:47 - MaryRose Mazzola We'll think about it. We'll definitely think about it.

0:38:50 - Felicia Jadczak I was like where are you going with this question? Oh, okay.

0:38:54 - MaryRose Mazzola It is cool Planned Parenthood has like an access states network where folks who are in these kind of like blue or purplish blue states do talk regularly. They say, like what are you doing in your state? And like we've gotten some creative ideas from that.

0:39:10 - Rachel Murray And it's just nice to be in community and like Mexico now is more open to abortion rights, it seems like, than we are, which is just kind of very interesting with a lovely president. But anyway, I digress. I am curious, and we both are curious, to know what has surprised you the most about your advocacy work in Massachusetts.

0:39:31 - MaryRose Mazzola Massachusetts. Yeah, so you know I worked in the state house before I had the job I have now, so I think not a lot surprises me in my current role because I know the building really well. But I do think what is interesting is kind of what can move the needle. And you have to, you know, obviously zoom out and think that the state house you know the House and the Senate are getting thousands and thousands of bills put before them every year. We're in a state where we're considered so progressive and we're asked to be number one on so many issues that I think it's actually pretty overwhelming and sometimes that overwhelm can lead to us not actually taking a lot of action.

So what really stood out to me when I was in the building was just how long it can take to actually pass a law Like. I'll use the Healthy Youth Act as an example. That's a bill that Planned Parenthood we advocate for. So they say if you're teaching sex education at a public school in Massachusetts, you have to make sure it's medically accurate. Lgbtq plus inclusive involves consent. You know pretty straightforward things and that bill got filed for the first time when I was in my like my first ever job as a legislative aide in the Senate 12 years ago. So that's an example where this bill's been filed six times and we're still here talking about it. But if you go into the building, a ton of people support it, a lot of people understand the need for it and it really is just competing priorities.

So I think what's been really helpful to bring that knowledge from working in that building to Planned Parenthood, to be on the other side of it as an advocate now and to say these folks are dealing with a million things, like whenever we have a meeting with the governor, we're like this is our big meeting of the day.

We're meeting with the governor, but every meeting she has that day is like that right, so just how much stuff is on folks' plates? And being mindful of that and trying to make the case that this is a priority for you know X, y, z reason and really adding that urgency to whatever request you have. And I think what's also been helpful is personal stories and data. Those are the two things that I like to leverage. So you know we'll bring a patient or provider with us to testify so they can hear it directly, and then we can also do some research and say here's how we compare to other states across the country that we think we're similar to. So that's what I found, you know, to be helpful to cut through the noise, but just really, how much is going on and what it takes to become a priority.

0:41:44 - Felicia Jadczak Well, certainly love our data, so yes, plus one for that.

You mentioned coalitions a couple of times and you mentioned a couple of examples as well, so you're obviously part of a lot of different efforts, really across the board here. But what would you say is your, I guess like approach in general when you're thinking about these relationship building efforts and how you're trying to influence this change? Because it's got to be a lot to manage just all of these different groups, even when you have the same or similar goals. I can only imagine that it's tricky to figure out how to come together, especially when the world is falling apart.

0:42:24 - MaryRose Mazzola Absolutely. I mean, you asked about relationships and I think that's really where it starts, like coming from the campaign political world. I'm a believer in relational organizing, which is basically saying you're creating the relationship as human beings first, and then whatever work you do together comes after and from that relationship. And I think coalition building is really similar, where a lot of the networks coalitions I'm in right now are with people that I've worked with in the past and who I have this personal relationship with, or at least you know, I've taken the time to grab coffee with them, understand why they're in this movement, understand what they care about, where they live. You know who their family is. Things just like to really ground us and we're all trying our best and we're all brought to this work for personal reasons and to remember that and that can help you know smooth things over if there's a moment where priorities aren't aligned or strategies aren't aligned. So I think that's really important. And then, from an organizational perspective, we've been talking a lot lately about strategy because, like you said, the world's on fire and there's a lot of demands on our time and resources and attention. And you know we've talked about how, if you're going to be powerful. If you're going to actually have impact, you have to say no to things and figuring out what we say no to.

And so, for Planned Parenthood, that usually looks like we are going to be, you know, the lead, or one of the leads, of coalitions that are really focused on sexual and reproductive health care.

Oftentimes we're one of the only providers or the only provider in the room when we're talking to legislators.

So we're, you know, so lucky to be in coalition with other advocacy groups, but we're the only health care provider, and that is a perspective that I think is different and necessary in those conversations.

So we try to take the lead in those spaces. And then, obviously, reproductive justice is much broader than that, and that's where we want to show up, leverage the Planned Parenthood brand, leverage our people power, our supporters, our volunteers, but we're probably not front and center. And so issues like housing, justice, criminal justice, reform you know things that are so important and that obviously touch our work and go into the idea of choosing whether or not to raise children and raising them in the environment that you want you know the definition of reproductive justice but that aren't necessarily squarely in our area of expertise or that we shouldn't be the voice on, and I think that's especially important around racial justice, where our staff at Planned Parenthood is very diverse, but historically an organization led by white women about white women, and so making sure that we are building space for other folks to take the lead, while we can still leverage the power and the resources that we have.

0:44:53 - Rachel Murray Way to tee up the next question. Well done so. Relatedly, I would love to know what does meaningful inclusion look like for other folks, especially the LGBTQ community? Communities of color Love to hear the practical side of that.

0:45:09 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah, absolutely so. First of all, I think people think about abortion when they think about Planned Parenthood, but we do so much more than that and, yeah, I think this has also become a talking point that folks in spaces like ours know. But to reiterate, you know we also do cancer screening, sti testing, contraception, and we do a lot of gender affirming care, and I think that's the piece that people are starting to realize now more, as gender affirming care is also under attack, much like abortion care is, and so for us, that's really baked into who we are, because that's our patient population and that's who we advocate for out in the world. And you know a lot of our even, as our healthcare, but especially our advocacy, is informed by the populations that we serve. And so when we hear a need from our patients, that gets built into how we show up in community. For example, about half of our gender-affirming care, our gender-affirming hormone therapy treatment, is done via telehealth and that's a preference. You can imagine there's a lot of different barriers to face to access that care historically, without stigma, without fear of being retaliated against, and so if that's the way that people want to safely access their care, we're going to make that happen and we're going to make sure we have a telehealth program to meet that need. So I think that's really for us with the LGBTQ plus community, it's just showing up in our day-to-day healthcare and our advocacy.

And then for racial justice, I think the organization had a reckoning in the past few years, the way a lot of progressive organizations and coalitions did, of what it means to say you work on these issues, or even to work on these issues, versus to do so in community, representing the folks who maybe are always the most marginalized and missing out on those conversations sometimes. And so for us it's meant a lot more coalition work. Last year we were a part of the Bay State Birth Coalition. So, again, not the kind of health care that we necessarily provide, but really important to us to focus on Black maternal health care, knowing what the stats and what the experiences were in Massachusetts, and so we are proud to lend our support to that.

We recently signed a letter of support for a birthing center that is trying to open near us, and so I think it's an example of we're not the leader of that conversation and we shouldn't be, but how can we show up in community and do our part and we've also been working a lot with our elected officials from communities of color. You know, either they're people of color or they also represent communities of color to say what else can we do to make sure your community knows us and trust us? We want to build those relationships and not just about health care. We want to come show up and do our sex education programming, talk to them about what's important to them from an advocacy perspective. So just trying to meet folks where they're at and also proactively ask questions about where we're not showing up.

0:47:47 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, it's so funny because, well, I don't know if it's funny or not, but I've been flashing back to when I was in my early 20s and new to Boston and I first really used Planned Parenthood services because I got my HPV vaccine there and I remember I had a friend coming to stay with me from out of town and I was like, oh you know, I was like I'll be there after X amount of you know, whatever time it was on a Friday, I'm going to Planned Parenthood first and then I'll be there to greet you. And she was like my God, like are you okay? Like do you want me to come with you? And I was like, oh no, I mean you can if you want to, but it's totally fine, I'm just getting a needle tapped into me. It's totally cool. But it was the first time again, as a young, fresh right out of college kind of grad, I really thought about the fact that it wasn't just abortion care, there was a lot more to it and also had that realization of like walking through and the security measures and just really feeling sort of the weight of the reality of the world set in. So I love that you've just been emphasizing which of course, is true, the fact that there's so much more to it than just what a lot of people might initially flash to when they think Planned Parenthood or you know what kind of services they offer.

I want to come back to a topic which we've touched on a little bit already, but in this sort of day and age, a lot of people are feeling like they are just helpless, right, like it feels like. Every day we turn on the news and we're like oh my god, this is terrible. Oh gosh, this is even worse. Oh no, we're living in the handmaid's tale. And then other people are like we've been living in the handmaid's tale, you don't even know, like talk to communities of color, et cetera, et cetera.

So a lot of folks, whether they've been in the work or they're new to the work, or they're new to resistance or action or whatever it might be, we're looking for something to do and how to react and meet this moment. And so what have you seen, beyond some of the stuff that we've talked about already, what have you seen be really impactful or effective for people to take action, whether it's individual or organizationally, and is it lending stories and voices to when you're going into those legislative you know sessions and talking with our representatives. Is it putting yourself out there and saying I'll drive you to get care, like are there other things that we haven't talked about yet? That could also be helpful for anyone who's listening to this, who wants to do something but doesn't really know where to start.

0:50:11 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah. So I mean something I think we've talked about a lot more in the last, say, eight years, since the first Trump election is the need to talk to people who are close with someone in your life. And of course you know I talked a little bit about storytelling at the advocacy level. That's also very effective. But even just starting with family and friends to say like this is why this matters to me, and like to help educate folks, especially to take the burden off the marginalized communities who are always asked to explain themselves right. So if you have some privilege and can sit down with your white family and tell them about why this matters to you, I think that's really impactful. So I always like to start there because I think everyone can do that. And then I think beyond that, really just where people's skill sets are or resources are to lean into that. So of course I work at Planned Parenthood. I always have to plug that you can donate to Planned Parenthood and we have both our 501c3, so our nonprofit health center, our research, our education programs, and then we also have our 501c4, which is our political nonprofit, and that's where we do our advocacy work, elections work, lobbying work, but also to donate to your local abortion fund, especially if you are in a restricted state. That's really the resources that are going to get people potentially physically out of state, if they need to, to get the care somewhere else. And it can both, you know, pay for the care but also for all the logistics that people need to access that care.

Beyond that, there's a lot of volunteer programming that folks can do at Planned Parenthood but other you know healthcare facilities.

You kind of mentioned walking to the protesters going in to get care.

We have a clinic escort program where people just volunteer to stand outside in like bright vests and say I'm here to help you and kind of enforce that buffer zone that we have in front of our clinics by just saying you know, we're not going to let anyone bother you on your way in or out of accessing care. And that's something that we have people around the clock whenever our health centers are open doing that. In the locations where we get protesters we also have volunteers that come to the statehouse with us and maybe it's just one time to meet with your state rep and tell them why you care about sex education. But it could also be to come out and knock doors when it's election time too, so we have lots of opportunities, whether someone wants to do one thing once donate, or come to one meeting at the statehouse, or wants to be involved in a longer-term program. So I think there's lots of options there. But it always starts at home and then with what people are the most comfortable doing.

0:52:53 - Rachel Murray Wow, thank you so much for that. This has been like just a ton of really useful information, so really thank you for the time Before we go I want to make sure. Do you have any final thoughts, anything that we missed that you really want to share, that we didn't get to cover?

0:53:10 - MaryRose Mazzola Well, I think we've talked a lot about how grim everything is, and so which we should. I don't think there's a purpose to sugarcoating it, but I do think the idea that there's. It's like that's a voter restricted state as much as it is a red state. There's people who feel very differently than their elected officials, and there's so much good work happening on the ground, even in the states that have the worst health care laws right now. So, I think, just reminding folks that good work is happening and if you have the time and energy and want to invest in that, you can find it anywhere. I've shared the examples of what we're doing here in Massachusetts, but there really is important work happening and there's a lot of people fighting really hard to protect these rights.

0:54:04 - Rachel Murray And I would just love to add to that too I'm so glad that you brought that up, because Felicia and I talk about this a lot that we don't see the good things that are happening in the news whenever we look. I get more information about the good things that are happening from my very highly curated Instagram feed, so I just I really appreciate that reminder.

0:54:22 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah, we try to do that with our Planned Parenthood Massachusetts Instagram feeds too, like we put all the good news, not just the bad news alerts.

0:54:30 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, so definitely we'll share links to all of this stuff, but highly recommend that folks follow Planned Parenthood on all the things, because there's a ton of good info there, and I so appreciate the reminder for focusing on positive and also focusing on joy, because it is depressing and there is a lot of bad stuff out there and it's a lot to deal with and at the same time, we have to balance it, otherwise we're not going to make it through. So let's talk a little bit more about your daughter and your dog, and I really, really want to know more about the frenemy situation, and the reason is because one of the things that gives me joy is watching small babies and animals be best friends, and so I'm kind of sad that they're not necessarily best friends.

0:55:12 - MaryRose Mazzola Well, it's okay. It's because I am raising two divas. They both have such strong personalities that my husband and I have started talking about nurture versus nature. And did we create both of them or did they just come this way? My daughter's going to be a year old at the end of the month, which is crazy. I feel like time is just keeps speeding up. But she loves my dog so she is a hundred percent obsessed with my dog. She has a little walker and she just chases the dog around the house. My dog's a French bulldog, which I think adds necessary context for the Deedon situation. Yes, of course, yeah.

And she loves the ways she can leverage my daughter to get more attention. So if it's oh, look at how cute they're being together, or I can get some food out of this. But if she's ever taking attention away from Elsie then it's a problem, specifically if she's chasing her down in the walker while Elsie's trying to enjoy her dinner. So they're learning to live together. Maybe it's more unrequited love than frenemies, but they both have their moments.

0:56:07 - Rachel Murray I love that so much. I love that so much. And another unsanctured question when are you running for office? I know, right, I?

0:56:16 - MaryRose Mazzola feel like my plate is full enough for now, but I do. I mean, I can't be a hypocrite. I always tell especially women to run for office if they care about issues, and so I stand by that. I think we're lucky to have good representatives where I live, with people like Felicia doing great work on the local level.

0:56:34 - Rachel Murray So I feel really lucky.

0:56:36 - MaryRose Mazzola But certainly it's on the table, but it's definitely not in this phase of life. There's a lot going on right now.

0:56:42 - Felicia Jadczak That's totally fair Because, yeah, I mean again, encourage anyone who's listening like, just check out Mary Rose's LinkedIn because it is so ridiculously impressive. I truly do not know how you have time for everything that you do, because it's a lot, but kudos to you.

0:56:56 - Rachel Murray And to stay in the positivity zone, like conversations like this is what fills us up, and we hope that our listeners get the same, because this is the joy, this is the work is knowing that we are in community with other people who are there showing up, doing the work and making the world just a little bit better and brighter. So thank you for that.

0:57:14 - MaryRose Mazzola Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's so nice. This is an energizing way to end a week, so it's been so lovely to talk to you both and to catch up.

0:57:20 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, and again, before we actually really wrap up, I'll just say a final plug for the relationship building piece of it, Because, as we all mentioned at the beginning of this, we've known you for a while now but we hadn't really stayed super close in touch. And then you and I reconnected because in January we both were speakers at an event at the Women's March in Boston, and I was looking at the other speakers' names and I was like, oh, I remember this name and I literally had to search your name in my Gmail to see when the last time we had emailed was and it was a long time ago- but I was like oh, geez.

So it's just so lovely that we are able to reconnect, have you on and again, I, just as I get older, I'm just grateful for relationship building and the fact that there are amazing people out there. You are one of them, of course, and just to be able to stay in touch over the years and see you in this phase of your life is just really lovely, and thank you so much for being here with us.

Thank you Right back at you, Mary Rose. Where can people find you if they want to learn more, if they want to connect, if they want to get involved in any way? What's the best way for people to follow up?

0:58:27 - MaryRose Mazzola Sure, so you can look up PPLM Massachusetts, it's ppmassachusettsinstagram and then ppafmass Massachusetts, our advocacy fund, and we're both on different websites Instagram, facebook if anyone still uses that, maybe TikTok eventually I think we own the names for now and then folks can also reach out to me personally on LinkedIn. I'm trying to be pretty responsive on there, especially, you know, if you are a younger woman who's starting out your career or interested in getting into this space, I'm happy to chat.

0:58:53 - Felicia Jadczak Yeah, wonderful. Thanks, mary Rose. Thank you, take care, we did it. Thank you so much, mary Rose. That really important conversation. So for our listeners, we hope that you all enjoyed listening as much as we enjoyed our conversation with.

0:59:09 - Rachel Murray Mary Rose and thank you so much for listening. Please don't forget to rate, share and subscribe. It makes a huge difference in the reach of this podcast and, by extension, this work. Visit us on YouTube, instagram and LinkedIn and sign up for our newsletter at inclusiongeekscom forward slash newsletter to stay up to date on all things Inclusion Geeks Stay geeky. Bye.